Womb transplants for trans women are a human right, says surgeon

The last 6 posts are why mumsnet FWR boards rock.

It's never going to happen.

It could never be safe to implant a womb into a male and try and sustain a pregnancy. NEVER SAFE FOR THE EMBRYO

Women are chided for a puff of cigarette or eating blue cheese during pregnancy because of the tiny risks this poses to the developing foetus. Lots of drugs (for actual diseases like cancer) are off limits because of the risk to the foetus. So large doses of artificial hormones could never be deemed safe, we just couldn't ever know without experimenting on human embryos, which is what this would be. There could be longer term impacts like cancer. A huge experiment on a human embryo for nothing more than a man's ego trip / sexual gratification / vanity project. There is no need. Men can be parents. They can parent equally and be the primary carer.

I don't know about other women but I felt guilty if I took two paracetamol during my pregnancy - because I actually had some sense of responsibility toward the babies I was growing. What a difference in attitude. Anyone who would willingly do this isn't fit to be a parent.

The fact that people are even discussing this when people are dying from cancer is bloody depressing. Reality is what it is, oh and in other news people can't fly and we shouldn't spend millions of pounds trying to develop human wings because some people really, really, really, feel like / want to be seagulls.

Forgive my ignorance here, but I thought that a site called 'mumsnet' (a) presumes that you have a child - which I do.

If people took the time and effort to read, reflect and understand what was posted on the many different Mumsnet boards they would soon be disabused of pre-conceptions.

This board is called FWR chat. FWR means feminism and women's rights.

God complex
Male entitlement
Narcissism
Commodification
Men's Rights
Fetishisation of being pregnant
False hope and expectations generated in young male transpeople.
Unethical
Utter disregard, understanding or care for the circumstances of infertile women

No mention of the well-being of a potential feotus or baby who would be detrimentally affected.

Its obsene.

How can a surgeon be this ignorant about a biological process? Its a complete fantasy based on ignorance.
A high percentage of natural implantations fail, one estimate states 20%.
There is no way for the imaginary fetus to exit a male body. The uterus couldn't contract as the correct hormones would not be present. A mans body wouldn't know if the fetus had died, and couldn't miscarry to expel the dead tissue.

Forgive my ignorance here, but I thought that a site called 'mumsnet' (a) presumes that you have a child - which I do.
(b) is aimed at supporting mothers with their children (hence 'mum')
(c) isn't really supposed to be out feminism at all

Jazz

1. As pp have said, Mumsnet isn't just mums.
2. Why can't mums be feminists? Or should be only be talking about soft play?
3. Don't you think a site where there are lots of mums (and dads and aunts and uncles and grandparents and all sorts) might just be interested in what happens to the baby...!!?

Are we purely our biology? Or are we a little more than just our plumbing?

I don't know.

Why don't you ask that question to Malala Yousafzai? Or the women who were raped by John Worboys? Or the American gymnasts? Or the woman who is 'made redundant' whilst on maternity leave. Or the woman who has her feet in stirrups having an abortion after being raped? Or the woman who is dying of ovarian cancer because the doctor told her she 'just needs to lose a bit of weight'? Or Savita Halappanavar (oh, apart from the fact that she totally unnecessarily died at the age of 31).

Ask them where they think biology comes into this and ask them if they think they might have had a different life if their biology was different.

And then come back here and tell women that 'biology doesn't matter'.

I've put two different flyers up sorry, this is the flip side of the left one

Jazzbunny. Transwomen are men. Humans cannot change sex.

I'll never understand how people can state this with a straight face.

I haven't read all the posts but this is complete Sci Fi. They would have to implant the womb with an embryo already in it. Ivf doesn't have a very high success rate as it is, this would be traumatic and the miscarriage would need a c section to be removed. The experiment would be on embryos and transwomen which is unethical obviously but wouldn't be long term because they wouldnt be able to cope with it. Look at the trails for male contraception.

As for the suggestion that it's a way for men to have babies - men have always had babies, the baby isn't less theirs because they don't gestate it. Pregnancy is what women do.

ShihTzup
Flyers included for lurkers.
And complaining that a demonstration was disruptive is missing the point. A demonstration that did not disrupt anything would have been ineffective.
Also worth pointing out for lurkers that those women have been bullied, doxxed and threatened ever since then.

Leaving aside the ethical issues which are many and various.

There would be enormous difficulties connecting the implanted uterus to the bloody supply.

There would be enormous difficulties connecting the uterus to the nervous system.

The control of the hormonal situation that is constantly changing through the different trimesters is far more complex than simply giving someone a dose of oestrogen. I'm not an endocrinologist but it seems as if the role of oxytocin is not well understood on the Male body. So I'm going to guess that this surgeon doesn't know the role of oxytocin in the Male body either.

The implanted uterus would not be attached the the 'neovagina' and the 'neovagina' lacks the musculature of the vagina, so the person would require a section. Then there is the complication of the uterus being implanted into an anatomically Male body, with a different shaped pelvis.

And then you need to throw in the fact that the person will be taking immune suppressant drugs which are known to increase the chance of miscarriage (and how would the recipient know...they cannot bleed), premature or underweight babies.

Other than all of that, it's all good to go

100% this. Funny how 'men getting involved' seems to have women having to do something as the first step - donate their uterus, express milk...

Yes. One example of Dh being highly involved is by bringing me a cuppa and taking them off downstairs at 6 am after a night feed marathon. (Baby is poorly). All I do is phone his phone (sleeping in the spare room to deal with any night wakings from eldest and to get a good night sleep as he works long hours) and that's the signal.

conatusnews.com/pride-london-lesbian-activism/

During last Pride a group of lesbians had a banner saying a lesbian is a female homosexual. And they were vilified. Across the board.

There was a bit more to it than that one banner.

The flyer they handed out was considered provocative propaganda by many, and in media reporting.

And a lot of people were very cross with them for pushing in at the front of the Pride parade in front of the intended NHS representation, and holding up the whole parade on a very hot day.

Not looking to derail, but there are readers here looking for context and ascribing the objections to that Pride protest to that one banner is misleading.

Men can get as involved as they want in child rearing NOW. They don’t need implanted wombs to do that.

100% this. Funny how 'men getting involved' seems to have women having to do something as the first step - donate their uterus, express milk...

Wow so a surgeon is all for a trans person having a womb transplant...yet when asked my gynae about one ... I would not fit the criteria, I had a hysterectomy at 27..(31 now)... Wow this world had gone made

Woah what a thread.

Oh gosh - I’m honestly not looking to upset people. I’m kind of at the point where I either disappear from the conversation or change my mind just to appease people.

@Divingintothis this has become an emotive subject for many and we do get many goady people. It does take some a while to stitch together the pieces and bigger picture of this. This subject needs the enormous application of critical thinking so please don't do either of the things you want to do; keep reading and learning. I hope you've begun to find answers.

Personally, my opinion is that it's a pointless waste of medical resources for men to carry children. It's also child abuse.

Jazzbunny needs to read a wack load of Miranda Yardley's writing, who is a trans identifying male. Also Seven Hex and Debbie Hayton. Miranda and Debbie are here. And then come back and try to tell us we are phobic and all the other slurs.

Why aren’t transmen demanding cadaver penis transplants? Wouldn’t it be easier to just transplant a cock and balls rather than fashion one out of a vagina?

I’m sure there are cases where men have had penises reattached after accidental amputation.

How many men do you reckon would be up for donating?

Why is it always about transwomen?

I think this is an important point. It would only be fair to consider cadaveric penis and testicle transplants. Penises have been reattached, John Wayne Bobbit had his reattached many years ago. And with the improvements in vascular surgery allowing for face and hand transplants I should imagine penis and testicles should be very much possible.
And then the possibility of the production of sperm? Or would that not work because of the different DNA? Worth looking at.
Except a lot of useful organ donation is from younger people who have died suddenly (car accidents etc) and I can't imagine mum and dad agreeing that their young son's meat and two veg is removed after his fatal motorcycle accident. And I can't imagine transmen being able to garner much sympathy for their lack of the above. But to be fair, it should be the same both ways, and if transwomen's deep psychological need for motherhood takes precedence over the health of a baby, then the deep psychological need for fatherhood in transmen should be treated the same way. And cadaveric penis and testicles transplants are much more realistic; they are, from what I can see, already technically possible.

Because something is possible doesn't mean it will happen, it's a very rare operation and they will be at the bottom of the list, unless live directed donations are possible (as with kidneys) then someone without need for theirs (eg me) could pass on our second hand one. Still highly unlikely.

And why just trans women? Surely if it's possible for a male to carry a child then why can't men too? There is literally no difference biologically, aside from a few hormones that have nothing to do with being able to be pregnant. Except some people have some delusion that they are more likely to be successful because.. why? Can this be explained in a scientific, logical manner without resorting to "because they are women" or "transphobia"?

Well it can’t be tested because people will die. So it will remain a pipe dream for those deluded enough to think it will work.

So seeing as carrying a child is such a simple thing that it just requires implantation of someone else’s organ, where is the research into trans men producing sperm and actually fathering a child? If it’s possible for a male to carry a baby then surely that must be equally possible?

Men can get as involved as they want in child rearing NOW. They don’t need implanted wombs to do that.

That said, I do stand by what I said. If there were a MEDICALLY SAFE (sorry for caps, don’t know to bold), way for this to happen, I would see it as a good thing

There's a world of difference between medically safe and all of the incredible processes that go into growing a baby. We don't even truly know how it all happens so how it would be possible to replicate it I don't know! Just think of how anything is achieved too, through experimentation...how on earth could it be ethical? I'm a bit offended that men having children could be seen as a solution to workplace inequalities. How about more flexible working for everyone?

No woman here is contributing to male violence, Jazzbunny. They are doing just fine on their own. And you still don’t see why we might not want that in women’s spaces, and why babies should not be used as a science experiment for men who just can’t bear to be left out of anything.

Quite the handmaiden.