Womb transplants for trans women are a human right, says surgeon

Is self-ID now law - so Eddie is legally a woman?

Take over, divert, talk at length, repeatedly make the same point, speak at length, exhaust all these women so so much that they take their irritating womanly parts away from the important men’s issues?

Who's done that in this thread? People are putting their view across

However, there does need to be a distinction between transsexual (transwoman or transgender woman), transvestite (cross-dresser), drag queen, non-binary. The last three are not women.
Stonewall would call you a transphobic bigot for suggesting this.
And if you believe that a transvestite is a man but a transwoman is a woman, at what point does the switch from man to woman happen?
Eddie Izzard used to be a transvestite, now he claims to be a transwoman. Is he now a woman?

These people face the same violence, the same rape, the same trafficking, the same prostitution as we do.
Clearly transwomen do not face the same threats as women. Most retain their penis, most have male build, most do not pass as women.
Someone like Hannah Mouncey is not at risk of rape whereas every woman in the same league IS at risk.

@glitterstick

"If I can't see any reports on the net then it can't be trooo, they're not, they're all fine and dandy and nobody's getting attacked

I take your point but the lack of reports of assaults in toilets in Ireland where they have self ID is often prayed in aid of why those who oppose it are violent transphobic bigots etc

I think it's tied in with the religion aspect of Genderist thought, in all honesty. There are some who are feverishly eager for martyrs for the cause.

I agree-I don’t get why the logic in this particular issue is “Believe you were born in the wrong body? You are more likely to commit suicide, lets get you on an invasive, painful and irreversible course of surgical and medical intervention to change your body”

Why on earth isn’t it “Believe you were born in the wrong body? You are more likely to commit suicide, lets get you on a course of intensive therapy, counselling and psychiatric help to address your suicidal ideation and it’s root cause”

If someone is in a risk group for suicide why isn’t psychiatry the gold standard?

Just reading this thread in its entirety, and wondered - if you wanted to stop a bunch of irritating biological women from talking to each other, what would be the best way to achieve this?
Presumably to butt into their talk, divert it away from the actual issue, and ensure that the conversation becomes so argumentative nobody can be bothered to continue the discussion? Would that work?
Take over, divert, talk at length, repeatedly make the same point, speak at length, exhaust all these women so so much that they take their irritating womanly parts away from the important men’s issues?
How might one do that?

I agree FloralBunting.

It gets really out of hand in a rush to leverage women's empathy. Or fear.

It's hard to escape the nagging worry that, when you consider how cavalier some AWAs are with suicide stats etc. there are certainly some in that sphere who would take satisfaction in actual harm coming to trans people. Especially if you're a parent of a trans identifying child and you don't roll over to the Genderist demands. I've often come across delightful people, even on MN, who seem gleeful at the possibility that my child could hurt themselves. Always dressed up with a 'then you'll be sorry you didn't obey me!' style flourish.

nauticant yes, I am talking about the TRAs when asking whether people actually want trans women to be attacked and murdered

I agree that the data regarding murders in the UK is too small to be conclusive (and that is a good thing!)

Which is why many UK based individuals and organisations appropriate data regarding transwomen in other countries, notably the US (where colour often also comes into play) and Latin America (where the fact that the victims are often involved in the sex industry, along with deeply ingrained homophobia, makes them extremely vulnerable)

And, of course, let's remember who the perpetrators are: overwhelmingly it is men who kill transwomen. Not women, not feminists - MEN

Or do people want them to be killed or something?

The general vibe in FWR is posters being pleased that in the UK trans people come to far less harm than we're told is the case by trans activists.

Basically if you have a figure of one person being murdered per year, you can’t draw any statistics from that really and it’s ridiculous to say it’s a higher proportion than women when the figure comes from just one person. In 2017, no trans women were murdered. The only thing you can say is that with one murder on average per year, there is no way you can see any sort of trend or pattern towards an increased risk of murder for trans women. And surely that’s good? Or do people want them to be killed or something?

I think that the socio-economic group from which many trans people come could well be a protective factor against being murdered at a higher rate than the population in general.
Beautifully put

I'd put it slightly differently thenightsky. I think that the socio-economic group from which many trans people come could well be a protective factor against being murdered at a higher rate than the population in general.

nauticant That would suggest that being trans is actually a protective factor against being murdered then?

How stupid. Transwomen have the necessary equipment should they want children. I got pregnant because I wanted a child not because I wanted to be or experience pregnancy. If it's children they want then surely using what they have is the safest for all involved. This is about fantasy and not the child.

As an antidote to my indigestible post above, here's a very rough version just to give a sense of the numbers.

Let's go with a figure of 500,000 trans people in the UK. It's reported that in the UK 1 trans person is murdered per year. This means that the annual homicide rate for trans people is 2 per million population in the UK.

That compares with 13.8 per million population for males and 6.0 per million population for females (2016 numbers for England and Wales).

The story is being used as a Trojan Horse to foster certain ideas in the mind of the gullible.

Exactly.

It's all about validation. For whatever reason. Which is why blurring the lines between the sexes is vital.

Hence women being considered privileged for having abortions, not being allowed to centre reproductive issues on women's marches, pussy hats being transphobic, lesbians having penises, etc.

And none of it the other way round. No women complaining that men are being transphobic, can't talk about prostate cancer, etc.

Because sexism is alive and well and being promoted at a rate of knots. It's a men's rights movement.

It's blatant, too.

You mean murder rate per million of the population of gay males? I don't have that but I might have a look since I am curious. The figure might not have been calculated of course.

Nauticant- any idea what he comparison between gay males and transgender?

Just following a pp’s comment about tg violence coming from homophobia...

Upthread there was discussion about how trans people are much more likely to be murdered than people who are not trans.

A while back I did some basic calculations so I'll repeat them here:

For the general population of England and Wales (E&W), the annual homicide rate for the year ending March 2016 for males (13.8 per million population) was more than twice that for females (6.0 per million population).

The transgender population of the UK is generally given as 0.3% to 0.5%[1] of the UK population. The male population of E&W is 32,000,000 - 2,600,000 (Scotland) = 29,400,000.

At the 0.3% level, then if we look only at male transgender people[2], their homicide is rate 11 per million of population. (0.3% of 29,400,000 males, so 88,000, so 1[3] in 88,000 which is 11 per million of the population). That is, comparing male transgender people with men, they are slightly less likely to be murdered. And comparing them with women, they are twice as likely to be murdered.

At the 0.5% level, for male transgender people[2] the homicide rate is 7 per million of population. (0.5% of 29,400,000 so 147,000, so 1[3] in 147,000 which is 7 per million of the population). That is, comparing male transgender people with men, they are half as likely to be murdered. And comparing them with women, their risk of being murdered is about the same.

If you want to look at the risk male transgender people face compared with the general population (men and women), at the 0.3% level their risk is about the same and at the 0.5% level, their risk is lower.

The reality depends on which percentage of the population figure is correct. However, at the 0.3%/0.5% level we are not looking at some great disproportion of the risk of murder for male transgender people.

[1] If the (also asserted) percentage of the population being transgender is 1% then the risk they face is much smaller (a half or (about) a third) than the numbers calculated above.

[2] This is based on the assumption that there are equal numbers of male transgender people and female transgender people. If there are more male transgender people then the risk they face is smaller than the numbers calculated above.

[3] This is based on the figure of an average of 1 transgender person being murdered in the UK (this is more than just E&W so the figure of 1 is probably a slight overestimate) per year. As far as I can tell, the victims tend to be male transgender people.

The difference between men and women's fertility and sexuality will always exist! What a preposterous thought that somehow there will one day be no difference, that will be the day all are born women, or all are born men, and the end of the human race.

Pride used to be such an amazing celebration. All is being destroyed. Everything worked, all were on board....until it all changed, now its all aggression and fighting, and lesbians and women being attacked...something happened didn't it.

Belatedly picking up on this post of Jazzbunny's from late last night:

LMAO... 'I also worry greatly about the pressure on young trans men to have hysterectomies, as there's already a research article that blithely talks about these young people as potential donors for trans women.' And you claim not to be transphobic... seriously why are you worried at all? How is going to affect you? It has nothing to do with you and it won't affect you in the slightest.

I was the poster she is quoting here. Why am I worried at all? Because I believe the very sudden huge increase in the numbers of teenage girls identifying as trans is a concern, particularly given the very large number of them who are on the autistic spectrum and/or have pre-existing mental health conditions and/or have experienced abuse. My daughter is fortunately just old enough to have missed this but she fits the first two of these criteria. She would have been vulnerable to the unscientific relentless propaganda on social media telling young, impressionable people that the reason they feel so out of step with everyone else has nothing to do with the obvious reasons I just mentioned, nothing to do with the huge changes going on in the body because of puberty, hormones acting on the brain especially, nothing to do with institutional sexism and misogyny making life tough for young girls suddenly looking like women and attracting unwelcome male attention, nothing to do with some of them starting to suspect that they aren't attracted to the opposite sex but to their own sex, nothing to do with relentless pressure on social media and in our present society generally to meet a totally unattainable standard of grooming and sexiness, nothing to do with young people having easy access to porn that a generation ago would have been regarded as really extreme but which is now mainstream and puts all the emphasis on male pleasure and female degradation and portrays sex as something that women won't enjoy, quite the contrary, but which they have to endure because what men want is everything. None of that explains these girls' dysphoria, apparently - instead, it's all down to being born in the wrong body. Everything will be fine if they can change their hormones and their bodies to look more male. Except it won't, of course.

The lucky ones may socially transition but don't have treatment, get through puberty, grow up and come to terms with all of the above, as best they can. They may still have issues with how women are treated in our society , but they know they're female and they accept that.

The less lucky ones transition and do have treatment but then grow up, detransition and find their bodies permanently changed by the hormones, so for the rest of their lives they have a deep voice and facial hair, at a minimum. We know the long-term effects on a woman's body of taking testosterone for years at a time from the experience of East German athletes given hormones before the end of the Cold War. It wasn't good for them.

Why would I not be concerned about this?

And this latest horror is just the icing on the cake. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5780567/ Academic article whose title is 'Could the female-to-male transgender population be donor candidates for uterus transplantation?'