man jailed after meeting 12 year old girl on a dating app who pretended to be 19

"This was clearly 2 normal and decent people who had no idea."

Which was 2?

The man in the story and the man in the news?

Hadalifeonce he was obviously a genuine and decent young man if he cans to you for permission. So here is an example of a genuine 20 something really believing a 13 year old was 16/17 years old. Your Dd was obviously not acting inappropriately or she would not have pointed you out for him to ask permission. This was clearly 2 normal and decent people who had no idea. This is why I asked earlier. What actually is the view of a young person GENUINELY looks older.

"I don’t think she should go to prison or anything like that, I think she should receive a social media ban until 16 or have to declare any relationships to the police until then or something like that."

OK well that's honest.

I'm really fucking glad you aren't running our criminal justice system.

We were on holiday a few years ago, DD was just 13. We were around the pool, and watched this adult (early 20s) approach and start chatting with her, we were keeping a very very close eye on this, she pointed over to us, he came over to ask if she could go to the onsite nightclub that evening; I thought he was going to faint when DH stood up and told him she was 13. He spluttered an embarrassed apology, and gave us a wide berth for the rest of the holiday.
This was the year after she was in tears, and very worried when the waiters were chatting her up.

Me and my friends had sex by 13, my friend was going into the city on the train at 13 to meet men. In certain areas and groups it is not uncommon. When you’ve not grown up in a bubble of love and money. Myself and friends who were having sex from younger were definitely the poorer ones who’s parents were at work or out all the time and we could go out and meet older people. Although that may well not be the case these days and could’ve been a coincidence.

I don’t think she should go to prison or anything like that, I think she should receive a social media ban until 16 or have to declare any relationships to the police until then or something like that.

All this 13 / 14 / 15 stuff

Under 13 in UK it's supposed to be "no excuses". As in, there is no defence.

And yet over and over we see judges saying of girls aged 11 / 12 Oh well she did look older.
This is inappropriate. As under 13, in law, there is NO excuse, even "she looked older m'lud".

Ah reading on I see that you feel uncomfortable about this case

Which may explain why you are keen to assert that a charge of rape against him would have meant "statutory rape" which is not a thing.

Rather than "rape rape".

Minimise minimise.

I am also confused by posters talking about girls they knew behaving in certain ways at 15.

The one I posted about was 13, and our group of 22 - 26yo females and males were shocked when we found out.
But I'm inclined to agree with a PP that possibly this girl didn't pass for 19, and that's why his sentence is what it was.

"Notonthetelly, sex with an under 13 year old is rape by law. There is no consideration of consent, because they are too young. At work, we have a legal duty to inform the police of any under 13 who has had sex because statutory rape is very much a thing. "

No it isn't

have you read the law

Rape is rape it is non consensual

The crime you are thinking of is called sexual activity with a child under 13

If there is no suggestion of force / coercion, the crime is sexual activity with a child under 13. Which is what he was found guilty of.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/section/9

We are not the USA. Why do so many people think we have a crime of statutory rape? We have no such law.

Rape is rape - in UK law non consent is key

I am also confused by posters talking about girls they knew behaving in certain ways at 15.

Another poster mentions 14.

12. She was 12.

Talking about older girls as if 14 or 15 are the same as 12 is an attempt to obfuscate just how very young she was.

To those who believe she should be punished / not get away with it.

This is in the article:
"'I noted in the victim personal statement of the mother which I have read, she speak of how her daughter is in a withdrawn state, her lack of cooperation and her silence. The statement from the social worker which I have read, speaks of the complainants guarded nature and her unwillingness to discuss events and her part in this case.

'It's inevitable, she will suffer in the long term as a result of your offending.'"

It is likely that her behaviour at age 12 is a symptom of previous abuse.

For punishment, no-one knows what her family have done around this. The tone of the comments reads that it should be some kind of official sanction that she receives.

I'd be interested to know what you have in mind.

Signing the sex offenders register?
Young offenders institute?

Notonthetelly, sex with an under 13 year old is rape by law. There is no consideration of consent, because they are too young. At work, we have a legal duty to inform the police of any under 13 who has had sex because statutory rape is very much a thing.

The facts as presented make me uncomfortable, but largely because I lean towards punishing intention rather than outcome (I think drink driving is the same whether you hurt someone or not, trying to have sex with a child makes you a paedophile whether you succeed or not). On the surface - aside from the texting which is awful - he did nothing lots of other people do. My sister looked convincingly over 16 at 12 and was bright enough to come across as 16 during casual conversation. The consequences are extreme for what he appears to have knowingly done.

That said, I'd rather have this situation than the case in America where a 67 year old man paid a 12 year old for sex and the judge called her the aggressor. If this is a step too far, at least it's on the side of protecting vulnerable children rather than excusing child abuse.

I hate to think what that girl had gone through before that her mum was sleeping downstairs to stop her sneaking out.

As a social worker, this girl's behaviour tells me that she has already experienced repercussions.
12 year olds don't go on dating apps and lie about their age and hook up with older men unless they've already been exposed to sexual abuse.

This. Nearly everything they're describing about her behaviour screams to me that she's likely already been abused/assaulted.

If we had a culture where men and women who were "hooking up" asked for ID before anything happened, this wouldn't happen as much.

If we had a culture where "barely legal" and "first time" "teenage" porn wasn't the norm, men might have a more realistic expectation of the difference between a "mature" 12 year old body and a 19 year old one

Interested to know what people's views are if an underage girl GENUINELY looked 19/20. I'm not stating an opinion here. I genuinely want to know.

It's always gratifying to come back to FWR after a short break to see a bunch of adults blame a child for an adult male's criminal behaviour. It's so retro and 20th Century

Its ironic how having overhead many a group of men in the pub or where I work, who crack jokes about not listening or not doing "what they are told " by their wives and girl friends. How they ignore the calls or leg it out so the wives can't hear the football on in the back ground and figure out they are in the pub.

So they don't listen, think its hilarious to ignore women and don't give a crap what they think or want them to do and go out of their way to do the opposite.

But yet it's their fault and they had no choice when their interaction gets them in trouble

I read about this in more detail somewhere else, can’t find the article now.

The girl in question was already under social services for going missing regularly. Her mother slept downstairs to stop her from sneaking out. She refused to give a statement against him, it was reported by her mother.

He boasted to his mate they had had sex but he was lying. He performed a sex act on her and took a photo and sent to his mates. As disgusting as this is, the photo sharing isn’t unusual amongst a certain section of young men. As an aside I refuse to watch that Paras programme which is on channel 4 atm after seeing a disgusting video leaked from one of them of a drunk girl engaging in sexual acts with multiple men. It’s disgusting and illegal obviously.

I have a 13 year old girl. She could possibly pass for 19 with a lot of makeup. She is fully developed and more “womanly” than me. She could probably hold a conversation especially with a “thick” bloke and not be pegged at 13

No she didn’t sleep with them for the sole purpose of ruining their future. But she was lying about her age so they didn’t tell her to get stuffed, she wasn’t thinking about why someone wouldn’t want to sleep with a 14 year old or the fact they could get arrested for it.
I think it mainly comes down to attention and feeling grown up (for Charmaine atleast) she loved that they could drive and buy her dinner and go to pubs whereas the boys our age were mainly hanging around in parks playing football and Pokemon.
She had a whole story about being a uni student studying English. I don’t think she nor the men she slept with were predators, but I don’t think if one of those man had been convicted she should’ve been able to walk away without being in some sort of trouble for lying.

It's always gratifying to come back to FWR after a short break to see a bunch of adults blame a child for an adult male's criminal behaviour. It's so retro and 20th Century.

The child did not ruin his future, he did. There is no excuse for not knowing that having any kind of sexual contact with a child is wrong.

And if he's sent pictures of his victim to his pals, and they didn't immediately reply with "what the fuck are you playing at, you perv", then the chances are he has done similar before.

The motivation isn't there.

I'm sorry, but we're you never a 14 year old girl with raging hormones ? I can quite believe the motivation was and is there, but this is why children need to be protected especially at this vulnerable age.

To go all daily mail, how the hell does a 12 year old girl get tinder on her phone anyway, her parents should be ashamed.

she could’ve cost a man his future
She went to a different city from the age of 13 to have unprotected sex with adult men but she's some temptress who could have cost a man his future? No, that doesn't sit right with me.
The motivation isn't there. That's a damaged child looking for attention not a one-woman vigilante trying to get men jailed using the powers of her underage vagina!

Think about it.

What's one of the most googled porn searches?
School uniform is way up there...

It's a fairly recent thing where kids stay in school by law till 18.

Barring a few six formers and the older ones of the class most school kids are by default under 16.

So men openly fantasise about school girls.

I expect even the lawyers and jurors have as dodgy an internet history as anyone.

I just can't imagine that 17,18,19,20 year olds etc are going to start asking each other for ID as proof of age, there are no doubt people who use these apps anonymously and wouldn't want to show ID anyway. I mean how would you prove it ? This is the problem if you start having sex with people you know nothing about.

However I have no particular sympathy for this man because of his awful texts afterwards and the sharing of his "conquest" with his mates.

I'm not sure this guy represents a real risk to society because he genuinely made a mistake. No doubt there will be mras saying the girl should be prosecuted for incitement to rape.

The most worrying thing is that a 12 year old girl is behaving this way in the first place. I hope she is getting the support she needs and deserves through all of this.

If you are having a sexual relationship with a school girl, it's incumbent on you to find out how old she is. Go and meet up from school, go and meet her parents, take her to the pub and buy her a drink.

The only reason these blokes don't know how old these girls are is because they don't want to know.

I don’t think you should be able to ruin someone’s life by being deceitful and walk away with no reprocusions

This.