man jailed after meeting 12 year old girl on a dating app who pretended to be 19

He should have just self identified himself as a 12 year old

In a carefully posed, lit and filtered photo I can look 19

(I'm not, I'm mid 40s.... Which is blimmin obvious within about 5 mins of meeting and talking to me)

@knockknockknock what on earth are you doing? This is a child victim, if you've seen things on FB purporting to be images of her they need reporting to the police and FB.

Shouting about photos here is ridiculous.

Like many other posters - I can accept that a photo on a dating app could make somebody look older than they actually are.

What I can’t accept is that a 27 year old adult didn’t realise he was talking to a child and not another adult when they met in person.

Either he must have had an element of doubt or he just took her straight home without really speaking to her. Charming.

And I'm guessing whatever imbecile posted that photo is probably a child abuse apologist too.

I looked about 17 with enough make up when I was 12. If I'd had phone filters like kids do now I probably could have passed for that even earlier.

It is no excuse and never was.

In which case let's just change the age of consent to about 9 for girls and be done with it.

Does that work for you,knockknock?

A photo - which has been edited etc is not real life.

In real like people are not 2D silent images trapped in an eternal pose on tehri "good" side and with careful embellishment.

The idea that an identifying picture has been posted inviting the general public to judge this girl (and get outraged that the poor man has gone to prison) is revolting.

OR are we going to change the law so that rather than based on age, it's based on whether the general public think she looks old enough for a fucking.

If someone has done that then they have identified the victim of a child sex crime which is highly illegal.

They have also advertised her to any and all men in the area, who know from the news that she runs away from home all the time, and tries to meet older men for sex.

What a totally fucking appalling thing to do.

Can you report them to someone, the police or facebook or something not sure how it works.

I am SURE identifying child victims is a criminal offence.

So here's the problem...

Children sometimes dress up as adults and go out seeking attention from much older men, perhaps even offering them sex. This is very damaging to the child.

Shall we
a) blame the child and accept that older men like sex with people much younger and can't be expected to know better;
b) blame the older man for failing to make sure the person he screwed was old enough and sober enough to consent?

It's not unlike having sex with a woman who's drunk. It's your obligation to find out if she's sober before shagging her and inviting your friends in for a go.

The adult is not expected to just know. They are expected to find out for certain, before engaging in potentially criminal acts. Ignorance is not a defence. If you can't be certain then don't have sex. It's not rocket science. The onus is on each adult to check they're not about to do something criminal!

Children, even very damaged ones who are acting out dangerous and unhealthy behaviour, need to be protected by adults.

I am astonished and sickened by the sheer number of posters here willing to place all or some of the blame/responsibility on children.

^^ This with fucking bells on.

So many excuse made for the disgusting behaviour of men. To say he thought she was older is bollocks, as a previous poster said, he saw what he wanted to see and assumed he would do the deed and move on. And his text messages to his friend just highlight what an animal he was. Some of the victim blaming on here of A 12 YEAR OLD GIRL is sickening.

Aeonium if this case makes men like this stop treating girls and women like pieces of meat in the future then I think it's good he's been made an example of. Maybe one of our DDs who may have the misfortune to cross paths with him in the next few years will be that bit safer for a bit longer.

Talktoo
You mean....what if the situation was completely different?

It is not actually that easy to get a fake ID, especially at 12, not least because It is expensive to get decent ones (ie provisional driving license). Otherwise every 17 year old would have them to buy alcohol alone, and they don't.

Extra barriers create extra safety.

rein

oops

Another "no excuses" crime is paying for sex with someone who has been trafficked.

The man (and it's pretty much always going to be a man) is guilty irrespective of whether he knew that was the position or not.

The reason we have these laws is because the offences are deemed very serious and there's no point in having a law about it at all if the man can just go "I didn't know" and a sexist society says "OK mate fair enough".

The reason we have these laws is as a deterrent.
IF you do this heinous thing then no ifs no buts you go to prison.

Our laws deem 12 or under as a child that is TOO YOUNG or sex, irrespective of what they look like or what they wear or how they behave or where they go or what time it is.

There is a reason for that.

It is awful that people want to see laws like this removed and men - all sorts of men - given free reign.

Aeonium

They are protected by the refusal of society to accept "I didn't know" as a reasonable defence, they are protected by adult men making some effort to ascertain the age of people they want to sleep with, they are protected from drawn out court cases when any form of Nuance can be claimed in the case of an adult man having sex with a child.

Nobody needs to sleep with teenagers. If you think you can't be certain, just don't do it.

And even if older people struggle to tell how old teens are (I know I can't sometimes), their peers absolutely know. I don't believe for one second that a 22 year old would be fooled by a pre-teen claiming to be 19
That's why Think 21 changed to Think 25. Basically the further away from 18 you get, the harder it is to tell someone's age.

But she is still only 12. If she'd have said she was 18 to a shopkeeper in an off licence shop that has a sign on the door saying "don't come in unless you're over 18" and purchased alcohol, that shopkeeper has still sold a 12 year old alcohol, and their defense that she shouldn't have been in the shop at all or told him she was 18 wouldn't stand.

I do see what you're saying, and stuff like this must be worrying to 16-17 year old young men who don't want to do the wrong thing but haven't yet got decent life experience and whom it is reasonable that they are dating people around about the age of consent. I get that somebody like that could legitimately mistake a 15 year old for a 16 year old if they told them that was their age. This isn't that scenario though. At the end of the day a 27 year old committed a sexual act on a 12 year old. I can't get over the sending a picture to his mate either, the absolute wanker.

Incidentally it looks like she herself has admitted nothing. She's been "silent and uncooperative" - I assume the establishment of fact that she claimed to be 19 is because it's been found written in the dating app.

There is a crime, and a victim. I just don't know how justice could possibly operate if perpetrators got of because they didn't think they were doing anything wrong. That's not an excuse to get out of a speeding ticket, and it's not an excuse to get out of sexual activity with a minor.

"
Sexual activity with a child
(1)
A person aged 18 or over (A) commits an offence if—
(a)
he intentionally touches another person (B),
(b)
the touching is sexual, and
(c)
either—
(i)
B is under 16 and A does not reasonably believe that B is 16 or over, or
(ii)
B is under 13.
(2)
A person guilty of an offence under this section, if the touching involved—
(a)
penetration of B’s anus or vagina with a part of A’s body or anything else,
(b)
penetration of B’s mouth with A’s penis,
(c)
penetration of A’s anus or vagina with a part of B’s body, or
(d)
penetration of A’s mouth with B’s penis,
is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years.
(3)
Unless subsection (2) applies, a person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—
(a)
on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;
(b)
on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years."

Reasonable belief is a defence if the child is between 13, 14 or 15.

It is not a defence if the child is 12 or under. Because 12 or under is really fucking young.

I am comfortable with the law as is stands. It seems like a good balance to me.
I am also comfortable with the fact the CPS guidelines for teens in the middle section 13, 14, 15 there should be no prosecution if it's consensual and they are similar it age.

I see others want the law changed.

What should 12 or under be reduced to? 10? 8?

Girls are starting puberty earlier and earlier - plenty of DDs friends and DD could be taken for 15 or 16 so "reasonable belief". That's age 11.

How about 10?
Or no age at all?

Men are rarely prosecuted for the "in the middle" stuff (13, 14, 15) if it's consensual so how far do we want this pushed down?

She is not a femme fatale trying to ruin decent men's lives. She is a fucked up child and society needs to protect her.
This this this!

But I dont see how she or anyone else is being protected by punishing someone who isn’t a paedophile and didn’t know she was a child?

Because it's illegal whether he knew or not. Ignorance is no defence for this kind of crime. It's unfortunate for him that he's broken a law he didn't intend to break, but if he'd taken a bit more care he could have avoided breaking it. He knew she was not 19, he didn't really care how old she was, and he would have carried on not caring. This only came to light because of the girls mother. It's not like he had a crisis of conscience and worried she might be underage. If that thought crossed his mind it didn't stop him.

I'm cheered by the judge's verdict and sentence in this case (particularly as the judiciary have done so much recently that I have despaired at...)

I'm thoroughly depressed by the comments under the article (and the amount of downvotes and upvotes they get) that say that the girl (let me emphasize GIRL) is to blame, along with the GIRL's mother.

I've been a 12 year old girl, I've been a 19 year old woman. There's a big difference between acting and looking old enough to get a drink or buy cigarettes and acting and looking old enough to take to bed.

And even if older people struggle to tell how old teens are (I know I can't sometimes), their peers absolutely know. I don't believe for one second that a 22 year old would be fooled by a pre-teen claiming to be 19

And he's a scumbag of the highest order to send round that photo

he was 27 he preyed on something he thought was 19 (and therefore younger than him) and groomed her into doing what he wanted.

The fact she was even younger makes it even more shocking. So many people say it was an adult website as if somehow we should believe everything we read on the internet

Overstory what if the girl looked older, says she was older AND carried fake ID.

She is not a femme fatale trying to ruin decent men's lives. She is a fucked up child and society needs to protect her.

But I dont see how she or anyone else is being protected by punishing someone who isn’t a paedophile and didn’t know she was a child?