Jazz Jennings - 'My vagina looked SO bad that my mom, sister, and the surgeons wouldn't even let me look at it'

I'm just watching the programme now, and whilst doing the surgery, the surgeons said they were using the tip of the penis to create a clitoris, and because of the nerve endings, this means there can be orgasms.

I don't buy this when there's adequate material to work with, let alone in Jazz's case.

TinselAngel
Do you mean for penile inversion surgery? I guess the thinking is some form of sexual pleasure can be gained from it so it is kept and used in the neovagina construction.
In Jazz's case the penis was that of a child and Jazz has reported no sexual feeling. Jazz didn't have enough material to work with, a circumcised child penis isn't going to have a lot of skin to make into a neovagina.
All this surgery appears to be aesthetic anyway, it just seems that those who had sexual function before surgery have half a chance of some sexual function afterwards. A lot of the language used around these surgeries is deliberately ambiguous, I think.

Surely the tip of a penis cannot give anything approaching a female orgasm? It doesn't even give a male orgasm in its natural state.

This must be a myth put about by men who have no understanding or experience of the female orgasm.

Poor Jazz I really hope that in the future they have access to all of the support they need

I mean obviously, life experience also shapes brain development, so it wouldn't necessarily be the same as actually being 11 years old, but all of those huge developments that take place during puberty won't have happened will they?

This, to me, is an urgent question. And presumably one that can be answered scientifically.

Are we creating physical, non sexually functioning adults, with the brains of children?

I do believe that there are more than two genders.

There are two sexes. Everything else is personality.

But really, you would have to question any adult who wants to get into any sort of 'love' relationship with someone who hasn't been through puberty and has no sexual function?
It's such a creepy thought. I think someone posted earlier that not going through male puberty affects the prostate so Jazz doesn't even have that option for pleasure. I feel bad even writing it but it's the reality of not allowing someone to have a natural puberty. Bone issues, IQ issues and a total lack of sexual function, just to ensure a better aesthetic result. For whom? Will Jazz appreciate being shorter, having a smaller brow ridge, etc that much that Jazz can forgive never having any sexual pleasure ever?
I'd rather be ugly and be able to have sex, personally.

I feel very strongly that children should be listened to and know their rights over their bodies.
However in this case it seems very exploitative of a vulnerable child/teenager. To show all the surgery and make money out of a young person doesn't sit well with me at all.
We can never really know what happened in Jazz's case as we weren't there 24/7.
I don't think puberty blockers and experimental surgery are something that most people will ever have to think about and therefore who are we to judge someone else. However, how much choice was Jazz given? We won't ever fully know.
I do believe that there are more than two genders. I also believe that people have a right to live as the gender they identify as. However I think that at such a young age to make permanent decisions is very risky for the wrong choice to be made. I didn't realise she was so young. I thought she was in her twenties.

And as far as Jazz 'finding love' (which seems to be one of the ultimate goals here), am I right in thinking that Jazz has never had any sexual feeling or function and never will? Surely that is any sort of sexual relationship out, simply on an ethical basis. The idea of someone 'consenting' to sex when they are getting absolutely nothing out of it themselves and has no idea what a sexual relationship is supposed to feel like is surely, at best, a sticky point?

And am I right in thinking that Jazz will not go through puberty so will essentially be left with the brain of an 11 year old (I may be wrong here?) I mean obviously, life experience also shapes brain development, so it wouldn't necessarily be the same as actually being 11 years old, but all of those huge developments that take place during puberty won't have happened will they?

But really, you would have to question any adult who wants to get into any sort of 'love' relationship with someone who hasn't been through puberty and has no sexual function?

These are huge ethical questions that no one seems to be willing to address?

I felt really sad typing all of that

The choices Jazz's parents had when Jazz apparently told them Jazz was a girl at 2 ( ) were:

The path they took ie. Affirming that Jazz was actually a girl trapped in a boys body from almost the beginning. It does sound like Jazz has been brought up with this thinking literally for as long as they can remember, so how will they ever think any different anyway?

Or

They could have told Jazz that boys can never become girls, that it's OK to wear dresses if you are a boy etc and brought in support to help Jazz deal with the distress that they may have felt at being told that you can't change sex. Take the child seriously, don't just brush it off, but maintain that it's impossible to become a girl. I just wonder where Jazz would be now if that had happened.

I don't know. I haven't had experience of a child like this, and I don't really know what happened in those early years in that family, how the dealt with it (although isn't Jazz the one who 'undid the poppers on their onesie to make it a dress'?)

But this just cannot be right. It just can't. Like others have said, it's Frankenstein stuff.

And I am absolutely sick of the parroting of 'hatred' and 'intolerance' and 'bigoted' and 'negativity' towards anyone who questions this.

I can’t belive the puberty blockers were given as an implant, at 11! It’s almost as if the adults were making sure Jazz couldn’t change their mind on their own.

come to terms with what their whole life has been so far

Can you imagine the horror and anguish if they did realize what has happened? That they have been left permanently disfigured and mutilated, every detail of their sexual organs and initimate life played out on television to make their parents millions and save them from having a gay son.

Dr Laidlaw that endocrinologist is amazing and brave to put his work and views on show. I had a chat with him about my situation and he was v helpful.

Those girls in the video -- so articulate and likeable. I hope they can all get over any physical side-effects of cross-hormone treatment. They do seem to have come out of this raring to get on with life.

Jazz has been 'affirmed' as a girl since Jazz was 3 years old! Indoctrination started way before age 11

Goodness, at age 11 Jazz thought they were a girls so started the path to bring them to where they are now.

At age 11 my DS had only just discovered the truth about Santa and the tooth fairy and being a fairly trusting kid would have believed pretty much anything I or another adult family member had told him.

Poor poor Jazz. I hope they can eventually build a life away from the cameras and find some happiness.

My gosh that link to the endocrinologist's article.

It's just struck me that Jazz has been used like a eunuch for everyone's entertainment. I don't believe Jazz had informed consent at all.

This is an interesting convo between some young women who formerly identified as men. The question of parental affirmation comes up with some mixed views.

What struck me is that pretty much all of them were over the confusion by 19 which really suggests to me that young people, especially girls are having a tough time dealing with puberty. Nothing to do with being in the 'wrong' body, just plain old discomfort about coming of age.

Obviously Jazz is slightly different in that they were groomed from a young age by adults but again I think had Jazz been allowed a natural puberty Jazz would have a much better understanding of who they are. Even if that was choosing to continue the trans pathway in adulthood.

Note that the (seemingly good) article effectively comes from the Witherspoon foundation, who are part of the Conservative right. The disconnect between the UK and US is perplexing. Why aren’t American liberals speaking up. The mutilation of Jazz is shocking.

You're right of course TinselAngel.

Jazz can't say they're attracted to boys without that meaning both sexes.

It's such a scam. Men have found a way to make any single orientation or variation automatically include them.

If you fully subscribe to woke trans theory, then you have to say you're pansexual. If what's in people's mind attracts you, not whats in between their legs it's the logical conclusion of the theory

I'm horribly uncomfortable hearing Jazz claim they are attracted to boys, then attracted to both sexes, when Jazz has never had an orgasm or erection and appears to have no libido whatsoever.

It's a kid saying what they think sounds right.

At the age of 11, Jazz went onto puberty blockers which caused irreversible effects on both their physical and mental state. A huge decision for an 11 year old to make. Jazz was given these blockers because 'Jazz wanted to'.

If, at age 11, 'Jazz wanted to' have sex, would that be OK? Because it's 'what Jazz wants' and it would make Jazz happy? Or would that be seen as abuse?

Now at 18, having not gone through the brain development of puberty, Jazz has been castrated, because its 'what Jazz wants'.

Having done a bit of reading, it appears that in 2012 Jazz stated in an interview that they were attracted to boys. In 2014, Jazz stated in a YouTube video that they were 'pansexual'.

This is surely a boy who would have just grown up as a healthy, effeminate gay man.

TheLurkingOne

Has anyone already posted this evaluation by an endocrinologist? It just says what you have all been saying. www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2018/04/21220/

Thank you for that link. A very helpful and informative essay.

Alittlebitoffvitriol what a lovely post. I completely agree. I think Jazz needs a big hug or 20, a sensible adult or 3 and some time away from the cameras and away from their family to talk, think and come to terms with what their whole life has been so far. It would take an enormous amount of unpicking and no doubt a hug amount of anguish but the poor kid does have options. Not as many as those kids with their healthy natal bodies, but still options. I just hope Jazz is being properly supported, but I think that is probably unlikely. It is utterly fucked that people seem to think that putting children on TV and experimenting on them is a good thing. Such woke. Much positive.