Can transsexuals truly be allies to women?

There's been explicit suggestions/ demands by Stonewall etc as to 'how to be a good trans allies'. Its part of a workplace training scheme which they provide.
Launch partners included House of Commons, Linklaters, Lloyds, Intellectual Property Office, Cheshire Police & Fire Service, Proctor & Gamble, Welsh Assembly, York St John University.

www.stonewall.org.uk/get-involved/get-involved-ind-and-comm/trans-allies-programme

www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/offices/commons/media-relations-group/news/house-of-commons-proud-to-join-trans-ally-scheme/

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228481-Cis-allies-being-asked-to-provide-protection

Ally to me means you both actively work towards the same goal, from different back grounds, equally.

Do women and TS/TG people want the same goals?

I don't want the definition of women to be changed to include a subset of men, regardless of how small that subset is. That's not what I'm working towards.

The same with sex segregation, and opportunities for women and girls.

But isn't that the point of TS, to be seen and treated as the opposite sex, therefore 'woman' changes its meaning and sex segregation has to disappear?

How can we be allies if our aims are conflicting?

My kneejerk response was to say that if I can be considered an ally to BAME campaigners (as a white person) then transsexuals - and men - can be allies to women.

Ally to me means you both actively work towards the same goal, from different back grounds, equally. Id struggle to call myself an ally of BAME campaigners as I'm not actively campaigning. I think of allied armies with the word ally, actively fighting. Or ready to fight. Or that my husband is an ally in our marriage and while raising our children except when it comes to the laundry where he clearly works in opposition.

I work extensively with children with asd and speak out as much as I can in any area I can. But still don't see myself as an ally? But maybe because I don't like to label myself with that word on their behalf; I'd need those people to deem my support enough to be an ally if that makes sense?

But I guess In this way I probably do see Miranda as an ally.

Looking at the dictionary definition it does say ally is 'mutual benefit.' As well as the military term.

I wonder if you're just sensitive, self aware and too humble to call yourself an ally hamster?

Probably rambling, had 3 hours interrupted sleep with ill child.

Hamster, does this not depend on what this is all about.

If my understanding is that trans people, like homosexuals before them, want societal change and acceptance, then this has to come out partly by negotiation. And takes time. So gay marriage is not demanded overnight as this was one thing the religious opposition found most difficult. Until a point was reached where society itself was saying "Why not".

What we seem to be having here is an origional act that allowed around 5000 transexuals to be recognised as the opposite sex, largely without problem. A "tidying up" could have learned from problems that had arisen to make it easier for trans peple, but also look at issues faced by vulerable groups within society and to protect teenagers who might be vulnerable to ROGD. (I think Karen White may have had a GRC.)

Instead we have Stonewall conflating sex and gender, and using societies existing tolerance to try to push through some weird sort of gender bollocks with no debate. There needs to be debate.

So I have no problem with other reponsible members of society, be they men, trans or the Daily Mail speaking up and pointing out that unlike the origional campaign for homosexual equality where there no obvious losers, as it was effectively about what people did in the privacy of their bedrooms, this is different. This is as much about protecting women's spaces as about accepting trans people.

And the campaign is very different. Stonewall is very different. There seems to be no recognition of societal concerns. It is very me, me, me and demanding.

So its not really about allies or friends of women. It is about the society we want. Men and transpeople who accept that women have rights and needs and who are prepared to respect boundaries and discuss changes are fine. Call them what you will but listen, discuss and if need be agree to disagree. People who want to insist that low wage beauticians should wax their balls, that they should have access to vulnerable women, like prisoners, those in refuges or Girl Guides etc are not fine, or endose drugging and mutilating healthy children's bodies without real caution, are not fine. Really not fine.

So it boils down to who is prepared to be part of a responsible and respectful society and who is not.

And lets face it, some women....Ruth Hunt...Susie Green...are far less likely to be described as friends or allies than the brave trans and intersex people who have and are speaking out.

Some of them appear lost and alone and are looking for somewhere to belong to. However having found a tribe it seems to make them angry, unhappy and chasing a physical ideal they will never be able to meet.

This is important, I think. I remember my finding my tribe experience in adolescence. It made me happy. Didn't like or agree with everyone in that tribe and didn't expect to, but overall it was a positive experience that made my life happier.

With young people who join the trans tribe there seems to be an initial period of euphoria followed by rapidly escalating anger, paranoia, and unhappiness. There also seems to be a real fear of disagreement, which isn't surprising when you've seen what happens to people who do disagree.

If you think you've found your tribe and then find that being part of it makes your life less happy, and you're afraid of what the other members will do to you if you disagree with them, that's not a tribe (read - subculture), that's a cult, in my opinion.

And I think that's where a lot of the anger for women comes in. The disconnect between what men think of women, why they think it, and then how they subvert it for their own ends, whilst maintaining that's what women are.

And the thing is that all women can feel it, that anger, and how quickly it appears when we do anything to remind the person of how poorly their concept of woman matches our experience of being women. I think the handmaidens feel it too, and are just responding to the fear it causes in maladaptive ways.

We have no shared experience of women's lived experience/trauma.

Thankfully it isn't necessary to share somebody's experience to understand their argument or point of view.

I hate the term 'ally'.

To be honest I don't like words like 'allies'/'sisters'/'siblings' when applied to political parties and causes. I understand that the point is strength through solidarity, but the language is also used to silence dissent and criticism. If you don't follow the party line you are a traitor.

I don't have to be somebody's 'ally' to support same sex marriage. I just need to have a moral compass and follow the logic.

Politics shouldn't be a fight between teams. We should all be able to think through the arguments and come to our own conclusions based on their merit.

I saw this today (online communities forming opposing sides based on e.g. harry/hermione and harry/ginny fandom), and sadly I think it's very relevant to a lot of current political discourse.

slatestarcodex.com/2013/12/23/we-are-all-msscribe/

A really interesting thread, thanks OP

My kneejerk response was to say that if I can be considered an ally to BAME campaigners (as a white person) then transsexuals - and men - can be allies to women.

But now I'm wondering whether that really is the case. Maybe the most we can do is provide specific support in situations where our privilege accords us a voice but denies it to others? And similarly, this is what women need from men and transsexuals: them being prepared to stand up (a la Glinner, a la Miranda) in particular instances where it is helpful to support the argument that women are making for themselves?

I noticed one of my posts made reference to 'MN support' gonna blame fat fingers I meant 'MH support'

I don't think that's much of a surprise to women, to be honest. I shall have to read your AGP essay again Miranda.

see also Sue Donym's recent article, 'The Elephant in the Room'
concludes:

"Please Discuss The Elephant
If there’s one thing you ought to do, it’s discuss the elephant. Please discuss the elephant. Don’t leave it rampaging around the room, destroying everything in its path.

Autogynephilia is a weird concept. It can be inaccessible. But it needs to be discussed in the LGBT community, and openly. Not talking about it is causing way too much damage — we have had our organizations taken over, our spaces colonized, and our sexuality redefined. Thanks to these men, you can no longer say ‘I am, gay, meaning exclusively same-sex attracted’ without being labelled a TERF. That’s not a good thing.

Dancing around the subject isn’t helpful. While the ultimate result of autogynephilia is homophobic rhetoric, is important to remember that a sexual fantasy, not homophobia, motivates such rhetoric. That is the root cause of the problem.

Worse is the effect on autogynephiles themselves. ‘Transgender’ is not an umbrella. It is a term that erases the very different motivations and causes of various forms of gender dysphoria. It does people who claim the label absolutely no favors. The original inclusion of the ‘T’ was designed for homosexual transsexuals, and include them with other same-sex attracted individuals. It was not designed to include autogynephiles, who are heterosexual males, or ‘queer’ individuals who are heterosexual but believe dying their hair some variation of neon should mean they are included. Making ‘transgender’ an umbrella not only erases the very different causes and struggles associated with homosexual transsexuality, it also obscures the causes of, and struggles associated with autogynephilia. Autogynephilia is not a condition I would wish on anyone. It is a unique, somewhat bizarre struggle, and reading through many of the accounts of it was quite sad. It can make its sufferers lonely and unable to connect with intimate partners. But enabling it, and on a grand scale, has caused immense damage to homosexuals, particularly lesbians, who have lost almost all their spaces and communities to colonization.

Please discuss the elephant."
medium.com/@sue.donym1984/the-elephant-in-the-room-dc822144a81b

Really interesting and thought provoking thread.

Being transsexual is, I believe, a supremely selfish experience.

Nothing wrong with selfishness per se! We all are, to one degree or another - we have to be in order to survive. I am selfish. I procreated and brought children into this world purely because I wanted to.

Selfishness is fine as long as it does not harm others. But how can a trans person balance their legitimate selfishness with the legitimate needs of others?

Certainly one can be respectful of others, but in trying to appropriate some of what others have, which they are unable to give away, can one ever be truly one of them?

For the vast majority yes.

I don't think that's much of a surprise to women, to be honest. I shall have to read your AGP essay again Miranda.

I can read about transsexualism, gender dysphoria and AGP till the cows come home. But it remains an intellectual exercise.

It's not something that I can relate to particularly easily. I can understand being dissatisfied with your body, few women can't. And I can understand looking at how the other sex gets treated, and seeing the grass is greener situation. Obviously.

But not to the point of departure from reality in the way AGP happens. It appears to be so far removed from women's actual experience, both in having AGP, and being the (alleged) subject of it.

When men talk about themselves as women, the 'women' part seems completely alien. An invention.

Which of course it is.

And I think that's where a lot of the anger for women comes in. The disconnect between what men think of women, why they think it, and then how they subvert it for their own ends, whilst maintaining that's what women are.

Thanks Miranda, AGP was the aspect I forgot about and probably the most problematic of all. A timely reminder I must read your blogs

Very interesting discussion Hamster I started my thoughts on pg 1 with an 'in my mind' because it was my personal view however I knew other responses would be thought provoking. I try not tell other people how to be feminists, transsexuals, allies or anything else.

I wish it was easier to have these discussions in real life...

Also - I hardly dare admit it - I thought this is what Judith Butler was going for, though admittedly that was on the basis of stringing one sentence together out of five

I should add that the trans in all this was about transgression of sex based stereotypes, and the use of those stereotypes a necessary mechanism to undermine them

I have only skimmed the thread, so apologies if I am being tone deaf.

Back when this was all just theoretical and not an active campaign to erase sex based rights, I was really so pleased by the idea that there was these men that so actively resisted toxic masculinity that they wanted to perform being the object of misogyny, misogyny in this context being the foundations of patriarchy. So I thought that trans was about maleness and masculinity and had no specific statements to make about women (as opposed to femininity). And it is so provocative to masculinity, that some men literally want to kill MtFs.

Basically in my head, MtFs were under taking a personally incredibly high risk protest against masculinity and even drew fire away from women in so doing, because they made themselves so utterly public to gender policing. They also absolutely subverted the idea sex based clothing and behaviours by you know, not being women and instead being men , showing that none of their behaviours or preferences are inherent to sex. In this, I thought of them as allies and revolutionaries.

Obviously now I have peak transed about fifty billion times and am not so hopeful about our future on the barricades together. But I harbour a little secret hope that this will be the next phase of our fight against the patriarchy

Good thread. Learning a lot from you lot

Very good thread.

Yes but not to the extent it exists now.

That's the conclusion I've come to.

I think this is such an important thread.

I don't have the words today to say much but I'd like to thank you hamster for starting this thread and being here to discuss openly and thoughtfully, addressing difficult issues, seeking understanding and common ground between humans, men and women, transsexuals and women, whoever, even if sex cannot change, and women will always need single sex spaces. And all my heroine women posters. You boost my flagging spirit :)

MH care is terribly inadequate and we need to do more to support children and to provide long term care to sufferers, not quick fixes or nothing. There is so much that need improving.

Where is the edit button when I need it!

Analysis of AGP in trans males

I wonder if we could weed out sexism, toxic masculinity, male violence and homophobia would Gender dysphoria still exist ?

Yes but not to the extent it exists now. Porn is at the heart of a lot of AGP. See for example the [mirandayardley.com/en/pornography-and-autogynephilia-in-the-narratives-of-adult-transgender-males/ TRAs I analyse here].

Miranda would you think it's fair to say that all transsexuals certainly have a pinch of AGP in relation to the onset of GD? I'm not trying to be contentious but it's something that keeps crossing my mind.

For the vast majority yes.

I wonder if we could weed out sexism, toxic masculinity, male violence and homophobia would Gender dysphoria still exist ?