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Original poster

When women are nasty to other women.....

32 replies

JennieLee · 02/02/2019 09:27

I'm a feminist. (Which is why I'm here.) In my everyday life, the huge majority of my closest friendships have been with women. They're supportive, intelligent, funny. They are good at listening. They're tough and have survived a lot. They share experiences in a way that's helpful. Sometimes there are complications and differences but these are worked out without significant damage being done.

What I'm curious about is the shadow side. Why do we judge each other more harshly? Why does this sometimes turn to a kind of gleeful verbal online bullying - for the most apparently trivial reasons - that seems to me to constitute an act of aggression on people who may in their everyday lives be quite vulnerable.

I've had an experience of being bullied online recently. The sense of shame is not dissimilar to that of being sexually assaulted. Because there's a feeling of 'Was it my fault? Did I deserve in some way? Was I stupid to put myself in the situation. It was only me. It'll be safer not to talk about it.'

So any thoughts on the psychology of female bullies? Are they happy in they own lives? Do they truly believe they are right and that undermining other women is a good way of teaching them 'the rules'?

OP posts:
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mytieisascarf · 02/02/2019 20:02

There's also internalised oppression....

hipsterfun · 02/02/2019 19:20

That’s more down to lack of opportunity, imo. I don’t think women as a group are any better than men as a group, or less likely to start wars, all things being equal.

BlindYeo · 02/02/2019 19:08

Yeah good point hipster. I hadn't really analysed it much, was just throwing it out there. We don't tend to start wars though Wink

hipsterfun · 02/02/2019 19:06

I did read somewhere ages ago that women generally may be less herd-like inasmuch as you can't get them to join together in large numbers as easily

Multi-billion dollar ‘beauty’ industry.

SilverDoe · 02/02/2019 16:36

lisa summed it up perfectly in the first reply. I especially like this line:

The things that bind us dont get rid of what divides us and that is ok

It’s important to remember that, really well said.

Original poster
JennieLee · 02/02/2019 16:32

I think there is a valid point about one way of dealing with aggression is simply appearing to ignore it.

I was thinking about this while watching Elle in Legally Blonde. There are other strategies, but it's one that's worth using at some points...

(And re Mumsnet bullying there was an example on a thread about a stepmother who asked quite civilly and in a caring way for some advice re her stepdaughter. And was basically told that there was absolutely no way she should be in a relationship with her partner at all. Everything was her fault. It's just ramped-up aggression lot of the time.

I wonder whether lots of us are dealing on a daily level with huge amounts of frustration and angst, that is barely being contained. Because I'm not sure that if we're generally feeling happy and secure, we would need to lash out in this way.

OP posts:
BlindYeo · 02/02/2019 16:28

Sorry you got bullied online OP.

Women are humans. Humans aren't 100% nice. There is a power to be enjoyed by bullying someone unfortunately and that's a temptation to both sexes.

I did read somewhere ages ago that women generally may be less herd-like inasmuch as you can't get them to join together in large numbers as easily in order to e.g. put an army together and follow a leader blindly and unquestioningly. We have a tendency to ask 'why'? Clearly that is a good thing if someone is trying to manipulate us into doing something bad. But maybe means it is harder to hold a united line on other issues such as feminist ones because of the tendency to analyse and disagree and fracture. Two sides of the same coin? Could all be rubbish, it's only a theory I vaguely recall reading once and was interested by.

BertrandRussell · 02/02/2019 16:19

Something that also happens is an expectation that women will be “nice”. Women may not have experienced other women being forthright and assertive and opinionated and read it as aggression or bullying. I think that happens a lot on FWR. We’re so used to circumlocution and pussy footing that directness comes as a shock. But also-some women are horrible.

lisamuggeridge · 02/02/2019 16:17

''My way around it has been to kill the bitches with love. They know I'm a hugger, they now know if they are grumpy, mean, belittling.,....I'm going to ask them what's wrong? I'm gonna tell them, 'come on this isn't like you, what's going on?'
I've noticed it makes them uncomfortable....what makes them even more uncomfortable is when I say, 'I'm coming into that office to give you the biggest hug' and I do it.''

Do you know you are describing some fairly toxic stuff there and you might end up sacked or somehting for persistently seeking to override peoples ersonal physical boundaries. COs thats not alright especially if you are doing it because you dont like them.

'If I dont like someone I try to make sure they know they are not allowed boundaries and touch them when I dont want them to' doesnt sound quite so good as 'kill them with love'.

BertrandRussell · 02/02/2019 16:13

Being a woman does not automatically make you a nice person.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 02/02/2019 16:11

I have autism and do not like being touched unless I am related or romantically involved with the person touching me. If anyone gave me "the biggest hug" I would file a harassment and disability discrimination report with HR.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 02/02/2019 16:08

kill the bitches with love.

Nice. In a thread about why women are nasty to other women. Calling other women "bitches" is a prime example of said nastiness.

WheelyCote · 02/02/2019 12:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

userschmoozer · 02/02/2019 10:42

Don't forget that on a forum, not everyone here is who they say they are. Dont treat it with the same level of trust as you would face to face interactions.

I think that all people need to study themselves, learn to recognise their own emotions, and learn about human behaviour and interactions.

We need to learn to break free from needing the approval of the group. It drives so many harmful behaviours.
Bullying is a minor act of sadism. The grim satisfaction people get from bullying is pleasure from power over another, and acceptance by the group.

redexpat · 02/02/2019 10:40

Im reminded of a scene in RHOBH when a newer cast member announced she had got her own show and was net with stony silence. Not one of them congratulated her. That scene really stayed with me.

I think maybe we (wrongly) expect women to be nicer and are flummoxed when others react or behave in a way that doesnt fit with our own expectations.

lisamuggeridge · 02/02/2019 10:37

FWIW the need to have your actual behaviour be unspoken, the need to have your supporters uphold your right to that, they are generally about shame and them knowing that behaviour is wrong. As much in an abusive reflex is demonstration that abusive behaviour is outside the norm, as it is attempting to get away with it. Not much help if you are in the middle of it.

Original poster
JennieLee · 02/02/2019 10:36

I think as the sex that has less biological/social/economic power it is often particularly useful - indeed essential to our survival - if we can support each other.

Arguably energy that could be better used dismantling the patriarchy is spent on saying things like, 'Oh she's such a slag' and 'Have you seen the state of her bathroom'.

Though these are minor things.

It's the banding together to decide that the state of somebody's home /their consensual sexual behaviour/their opinions on just about anything means they must be collectively shunned and shamed which is problematic.

And I think it's an interesting one for Mumsnet. The more'bullying' parts of the site are probably extremely active - which will attract advertisers/money. So, as with any commercial website, there is only the most limited commitment to policing any behaviour which helps to generate income/profit.

OP posts:
lisamuggeridge · 02/02/2019 10:35

I think the pack mentality is key to bullying and the way ew form hierarchies. We all do stuff that causes harm, the thing that marks out those who are abusive and those who are not, to my mind, is how they respond to that harm. Most of us reflect and maybe apologise or think, but the abusive dont, they escalate, demand their victim be seen as aggressor and the second the aggressors behaviour becomes apparent it becomes their identity and group vs their victim. Its kind of tedious, and I think the second you start placing someone above that, above question, you are more or less saying you know they wil do that and committing to holding that up for them. I dont hink women are immune from this, and i think the perception women should be nice is more often than not used y those who mean they want women to not answer back but women do this, and they support men who do it.

Racecardriver · 02/02/2019 10:27

There is no obligation to be nicer to ones own sex. And men are also proliferate physiological bullies. I just don’t see the issue here.

Original poster
JennieLee · 02/02/2019 10:26

No, I'm quite old.

I have come to the reluctant conclusion that there are factors 'bully-able'. I was physically abused as a child. My father had an uncertain, violent temper. My mother enabled him to act as he did. They also both had a strong sense of what proper behaviour was, but didn't communicate this with me. So a strong memory of my childhood is being repeatedly punished for doing things I didn't know were wrong. Sometimes I'd ask what I'd done and they'd just say, 'You know perfectly well what you've done.'

So I think there's a vulnerable core where I'm often worried that I have to behave perfectly. Otherwise people can turn on me an that small errors/misjudgements will cause people to become extremely angry. So in face to face - eg work situations - I think people can smell that.

At the same time I also appear bright and articulate. I ask questions. I don't accept things I don't believe to be true and injustice makes me feel an obligation to speak out. I'm an individual rather than somebody who's always one of the pack. And I think people can feel that threatening and need to assert themselves - as part of the pack - through dominating/undermining behaviour.

OP posts:
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 02/02/2019 10:15

Sorry

I meant to say that this is an interesting thread and im going to lurk

I think bullying is seen as happening to young people and it can obviously happen at any age

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 02/02/2019 10:14

Ive got no useful comments jenni both dd and i have been lucky enough to not be bullied

Probably because i only really do mumsnet and dd probably wouldn't notice

But a friend of mine lost a close friendship group and although they weren't overtly mean to her the act of deserting and ignoring her was definitely bullying in my opinion

Sorry this has happened to you Flowers

lisamuggeridge · 02/02/2019 10:11

Abusive dynamics rely on the person doing it having power to make their actions remain unspoken, even when they harm soemone, and they are about exerting power that way. The power to have your friends round on someone you harmed, the power to have someone you harmed fired, or not believed. its really standard and its the second someones behaviour undermines the image they protect the demonstration you then get is who will overlook it and that is not nice. Not at all.

Its why stating the behaviour openly and exposing that power dynamic is always necessary, but you really have to learn to accept what you find out from doing that cos its often unpleasant.

LangCleg · 02/02/2019 10:07

I think one of the awful things about online bullying is the feeling it can be done openly to you.

Yes. This.

Weetabixandshreddies · 02/02/2019 09:59

There's a thread running at the moment where a poster talks about her experience of rape and subsequent abortion - the reaction of some of the posters on there is absolutely disgusting.

I have never seen such hateful disregard for another person. The fact that these posters purport to be feminists make it all the more shocking.

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