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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mermaids 'power couple' Hannah & Jake Graf say surrogacy laws must be changed to force women to hand over babies

246 replies

QuietContraryMary · 01/02/2019 12:18

Jake & Hannah have joined a surrogacy agency and want to rent a womb. Hannah says, however, the law should be changed to compel the rented woman to hand over the baby at birth.

www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/transgender-couple-ready-start-family-call-uk-surrogacy-law-141118630.html

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psychedelicleggings · 15/02/2019 08:12

@littlecabbage - absolutely agree with you.

Lolasaurous · 15/02/2019 05:16

And btw, I may not be able to have biological children, due to medical condition

ComputerSaysMo · 15/02/2019 04:38

They see nothing at all wrong with replicating all sorts of horrendous things because they are the good guys.

YES. That’s exactly it. Because they feel they are on the right side of history (and if that’s not colonist thinking, I don’t know what is), they assume anything they are doing is right.

Lolasaurous · 15/02/2019 03:50

Only selfish narcissists who have no thought nor care for women would want this

Bowlofbabelfish · 08/02/2019 15:12

Absolutely- the left at the moment are convinced everything they do is correct just because they’re left. They identify as the good guys. But they’re not. Actions, not identified.

FloralBunting · 08/02/2019 14:36

Mengele has been mentioned in this house too. And I know that the answer the Genderists will give to the question "How are your experiments on kids different to Mengele's?" will be entirely based on good feeling and bad feelings. They see nothing at all wrong with replicating all sorts of horrendous things because they are the good guys.

Most people understand that being 'good' or 'bad' is a judgement made on what you do or don't do. If you do the same bad things as a bad person, it doesn't matter if you 'identify' as a good person. You're not.

RiverTam · 08/02/2019 14:35

where are the comments against that article, I can't see them?

Bowlofbabelfish · 08/02/2019 14:25

Mengele. Yeah that’s been my thought too. Along with ‘hey! What happens if we like, totally stop puberty?’ And surgery on kids.

I find it so disturbing.

hipsterfun · 08/02/2019 14:02

When I read stuff like that, the name Mengele comes into my head.

My mother said exactly that.

nauticant · 08/02/2019 11:00

When I read stuff like that, the name Mengele comes into my head. I know that invokes Godwin but I don't care. Having looked at the comments (I hadn't noticed them before) it seems I'm not alone in picking up that impression.

This is what the wokest of the woke looks like. Left unchecked the things it could enable defy the imagination.

Needmoresleep · 08/02/2019 10:48

Nauticant, the comments below the Sophie Lewis article are good, though the bits of the article I thought I could understand were pretty offensive. She has a PhD in geography, physical I assume.

CatandtheFiddle · 08/02/2019 10:34

I've just read that article.

So this is a heterosexual couple who vooluntarily made themselves infertile, and now they're calling for the enforcement of women's bodies to satisfy their desires to have a child?

It's obscene.

And I'd say that even if they were a same sex couple or not transgender.

Using women's bodies as incubators is obscene. In fact, words can't express how horrifying I find this.

nauticant · 08/02/2019 10:08

Bah! I should have said that the links in my thread came from the NY Times article linked to in the preceding post.

nauticant · 08/02/2019 10:07

Surrogacy came up on another thread. Once surrogacy is normalised you can end up heading to some disturbing places:

www.versobooks.com/blogs/3654-gestators-of-all-genders-unite

www.forbes.com/sites/julianvigo/2018/09/24/the-ethics-of-transhumanism-and-the-cult-of-futurist-biotech/#74f10414ac54

Sparechange · 08/02/2019 09:33

Here is an interesting intersection between trans and surrogacy...

The author of this pretty bizarre article
www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/opinion/terf-trans-women-britain.html is also the author of an upcoming book which calls for an increase in the availability of surrogacy
www.penguinrandomhouse.ca/books/600137/full-surrogacy-now-by-sophie-anne-lewis/9781786637291

So it seems having very strange viewpoints on both things can go hand in hand

CowJumping · 08/02/2019 08:52

Seriously, it’s like Handmaids Tale

Didn’t Ms Atwood say once that there is nothing In that book that hasn’t happened somewhere?

And I find surrogacy deeply disturbing. There’s too much baggage attached to patriarchal ownership of women’s bodies.

Barracker · 07/02/2019 21:41

I completely agree with you, Heronymous

VickyEadie · 07/02/2019 19:27

I think this isn’t a trans issue, it’s a surrogacy issue.

Definitely - I'd venture to suggest that far more 'straight' couples than trans or gay will use surrogacy.

Heronymous · 07/02/2019 17:48

Even I’m worried about this and I couldn’t be more pro trans rights. But I think this isn’t a trans issue, it’s a surrogacy issue.

I’m not generally opposed to surrogacy, but I think it’s only acceptable when women who act as surrogates have absolute autonomy over their bodies and the babies they have. If they decide at any point up to the moment of formal adoption that they no longer want to give up the baby, they should be able to do so without facing any kind of penalty. There also needs to be a significant cooling off period so that the adoption process can’t be commenced right away (not sure if that is currently the law).

I also think we need to tighten up the law so that surrogates aren’t paid more than compensation for their actual costs / expenses. I think we have to be very careful not to create a situation where poor women feel economic pressure to be surrogates.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 07/02/2019 16:56

Anyone read the kids book The Giver? It’s a really good book.

This reminds me of that.

WeRiseUp · 07/02/2019 16:52

a woman carrying a baby inside her for nine months

We don't just carry the babies though do we? They are made of the nutrients provided by our bodies. They are made of us entirely, apart from the couple of cells that initially unite to create the blue print.

We are much more than carriers and the womb is not just a pocket.

OhHolyJesus · 07/02/2019 16:31

Saw this today

www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/surrogates

WichBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe · 02/02/2019 21:23

I'm an adopter. Not due to any fertility problems but because an adult in the the family had their child removed by the Family Court and, had I not stepped forward, the child would've been adopted outside of the family. I still had to go through all the checks, balances and assessments of any person in this country wishing to adopt, quite rightly.

I have spent many hours of my life over the years holding my adoptive child whilst their heart has broken over and over due to them thinking they were ultimately rejected by their birth parents. This kind of pain, even when the child was not safe to be left in the care of birth parents, can take a lifetime to recover from. I cannot begin to imagine how my child would feel if they had been, in effect, sold by their birth parents. I can only think that it would create even greater trauma and feelings of insignificance in a child.

Surrogacy needs to be stopped, in all forms, to protect the children involved. End of.

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 02/02/2019 20:44

Sorry VickyEadie I got the wrong end of the stick of your question. Yes I agree though that the impact of her decision on her family/employers/students doesn't sit well with me.

Iused2BanOptimist · 02/02/2019 20:23

Apologies. I absolutely don't want to reduce maternity rights, of course I would never suggest that someone who had a still birth was not entitled to leave.

However parts of the discussion up thread have made me think about other implications of surrogacy:

I start from the position of opposing surrogacy under all circumstances.
Personally I find it very depressing that more enlightened countries around the world and across Europe have banned it but the UK is looking to update our "not fit for purpose" laws and a Law Commission Review has begun, funded in part by the Department of Health.

www.lawgazette.co.uk/law/commission-begins-work-on-not-fit-for-purpose-surrogacy-laws/5065988.article

Given that an outright ban is not on the table I have been thinking about what "improvements" to the law we can expect. I am very concerned about quite a few issues.

Discussion upthread has raised financial issues I had not previously thought about.

If you consider the Californian model, that Dustin Lance Black extols, all the costs fall to the commissioning parents which is why it is so expensive over there.

ALL medical costs, IVF, payment for donor eggs, antenatal care, delivery and I would hope post natal care.
Legal expenses, for both parties.
Agency fees.
Counselling and screening of the surrogate.
The surrogate herself is paid. Whether her general living expenses etc are expected to be met from the fee or they are charged on top I do not know. However USA alone in the western world gives practically no maternity leave. About two weeks at the most I believe.
So if the surrogate takes a break from work I would imagine the cost falls to the commissioning parents, either on top of the fee as expenses or the fee is sufficient to allow for these costs.
I think we can be sure that the state in the USA will not contribute one single dollar to any of the costs associated with surrogacy.

In the UK at present commercial surrogacy is not allowed so I believe agencies are voluntary and do not charge fees, contracts are not enforceable and probably not drawn up most of the time.
IVF would have to be done via a private clinic as the NHS does not offer this to surrogates yet.

But once the surrogate is pregnant she can rock up to her nearest maternity unit and have all the rest of her care on the state. OK, you could say if the commissioning parents were able to get pregnant the NHS would fund their pregnancies so fair enough, so long as both parties are British.

Then you have other benefits such as maternity leave. Adoptive parents are entitled (rightly) to parental leave. Adding in the surrogate means it is paid out three times potentially.

Paid surrogacy is not allowed but they can claim expenses. These are suggested to range from £10k to £15k. Isn't it fair that leave from work should come under expenses?

Legal costs such as court costs and any social work input for the parental order - I assume they fall to the state too.

With "improved, up to date" laws and an increasing demand significant expense will fall to the state.

I fully expect that international customers will be attracted to the UK unless the new laws specifically outlaw it. An American could make a substantial saving with medical costs and leave from work falling to the state (and employers).

No way do I want maternity rights affected but I really don't think it is fair for employers or the state to take the hit for surrogate mothers.

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