Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie Parker in the USA

436 replies

lucydo · 31/01/2019 09:43

I am aware that there already long threads on this, but would anyone mind just giving me the basic information about what so many people are objecting to? Is it just that she has attended an event run by a Right Wing organisation? Or is there more?
It just looks like a pile-on by left-wingers on my twitter feed.
In all events, it's a TRA dream - divide and rule.
Again, before anyone flames me, I know that there are 2 long threads on this, but I gave up the will to read them after people going on about breakfasts for post after post.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
BlackShutters · 01/02/2019 17:03

Perhaps what we need to think about are the reasons why so many girls (many of whom are lesbian, so it seems) identify as boys and perhaps we need to consider where homophobia and gender fundamentalism comes from - and came from even before the trans genderists - one of the major places it comes from is the conservative Christian right (at least in the US which is the subject of this thread).

It's true that the conservative Christian right is homophobic but they aren't the only ones preaching gender fundamentalism. The Christian right has minimal influence in states which have gender identity laws. "you're really a boy (or girl)" and need mutilating surgery and health threatening medication based on stereotypes is celebrated and supported in progressive states. Encouraged even.

Italiangreyhound · 01/02/2019 16:41

Earlywalker I am so sorry about what happened to you. Flowers

Honestly, as womem we have so much more in common than apart.

Can I say in the nicest possible way I think you got hold of the wrong end of the stick. I think all our emotions are running high.

We really must find ways to come together. The 'trans issue' is not one issue, there won't be one response. But we must find a way forward together as women protecting women and girls and we are not forgetting a the other issues.

We can all add value, we can all add our voices. That's why I like Posy. She's not like me! I'm way too soft.

But whatever has happened to women here we can move on together. Those who can work together will rub off on each other.

Maybe the Heritage Foundation will be transformed!

Flowers
Italiangreyhound · 01/02/2019 16:17

YetAnotherSpartacus "You know well enough that I do this because you have been here for at least the same length of time as I have and using the same name. Perhaps what we need to think about are the reasons why so many girls (many of whom are lesbian, so it seems) identify as boys and perhaps we need to consider where homophobia and gender fundamentalism comes from - and came from even before the trans genderists - one of the major places it comes from is the conservative Christian right (at least in the US which is the subject of this thread)."

Firstly do I do not remember everyone's names or views. So my apologies for not knowing your position on things. I was not purposely being forgetful.

Secondly, several people seem to be mentioning the right to not be pregnant without acknowledging the right to hang on to one's fertility.

Thirdly, I do agree with you about wondering where it comes from. But in my extended family we have a female, brought up in s feminist environment (not fundamentalist Christian) who identifies as a boy. So that issue is very close to my heart.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 01/02/2019 15:22

(and by you I mean 'one' i.e. whatever an individual thinks rather than anyone in particular)

LangCleg · 01/02/2019 15:06

think I’ve found my breaking point now

You've found it quite a few times so far, yet you seem to mend pretty quickly.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 01/02/2019 14:38

Bernard interesting, but I don't think MN women have any particular unity except in not wanting harm to come to children and women. And that's going to be a difficult thing to distract us from however hard they try not least because a lot of us have actual children who are far more important to us than any 'identity'. And that's where I believe Posie is coming from too, whatever you might think of her tactics.

Ereshkigal · 01/02/2019 14:35

and find the statement that the trans issue is the most important issue facing woman, offensive.

That's your issue. Not anyone else's. Don't tell other people what they should prioritise. IMO it is, and I also say that as a rape survivor and survivor of DV. It is fundamental to women as a class to be able to name our oppression and what is responsible for it.

Oxytocindeficient · 01/02/2019 14:12

I responded to your horrid question Early, with my rape story, you responded with no acknowledgement of it and straight into the being offended about what women think is the most important issue comment.

You can hardly complain about not being acknowledged if your response to me is a manipulative post which doesn’t respond to mine.

For anyone previously accusing me of being rude to Early, yeah I’m gonna be rude to anyone, victim of abuse or not, that thinks it appropriate to discuss what fears rape victims have are most important. The answer is: they all are.

To be crystal clear, I stand with all women on this issue of self ID and the appropriation of our words. Whether I like them or not. I also stand with all abused women, whether I like them or not. But i will absolutely angrily challenge anything I think is disrespectful to rape victims regardless of who is responsible, and if another victim responds to my horror at that question, with no acknowledgement of my rape, then I don’t feel obliged to extend kindness to them.

Earlywalker · 01/02/2019 13:54

No one achknowledged mine oxy until italian and then rufus said something.

I posed my statement ‘as someone who’s experienced a,b,c I find x,y, z offensive. You responded to it by quoting x,y,z and saying ‘I don’t care, so what’ .

I was then called out for not responding to your abuse, when the majority of posters ignored mine also. You got flowers, I got more verbal abuse. One person called out what you said and that was it. thank you yetanothersparticus
To be honest I don’t care if you care about my abuse anyway, I don’t need your sympathy. I was stating that as someone who’s experienced a lot of shit in my life that mainly affects woman, I feel there are bigger issues facing woman and find the statement that the trans issue is the most important issue facing woman, offensive.

I posed my question about rape as someone who has been raped. I’ve been very open about that on these boards. Ive also had 2 abortions, one was as a result of rape and I’ll tell you now that as a teenager going into that clinic in Richmond, miles away from my home having experienced the worst ordeal of my life, the people outside telling me that my fetus can feel pain and knows it’s going to die made an awful situation so much more awful.

Had I not had access to that abortion, I don’t know what I’d have done. I think it’s very rocky territory getting involved with these people who want to strip those rights away.

I obviously am sorry for what you experienced, the actions that woman suffer at the hands of men needs to end. You may feel differently about your experience, but to me the blame for the event and my feelings and trauma after lay solely with the man who felt his right to sex was more important than my right to walk home without being raped. A transwoman in a refuge afterwards may have traumatised you, I agree it’s a dangerous thought, my point is that the main issue is the initial assault, in my view if the assault had not have happened, the intense trauma faced by men/TW after would be a moot point (for me atleast)

You’re free to disagree, makes no difference to me. I just thought I’d come back to clarify, but I won’t post on these boards anymore, think I’ve found my breaking point now.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 01/02/2019 13:54

the board seems very fraught today

this is what I'm bearing in mind before I hit 'Post Message'

Posie Parker in the USA
Ereshkigal · 01/02/2019 13:53

Not taking no for an answer or not even asking, is a fucking big deal to me.

To me too Thanks I feel exactly the same. It's a matter of my right to consent being taken away again. It's a matter of being coerced and gaslighted and controlled again.

R0wantrees · 01/02/2019 13:51

I hate I’ve gone against my wish to ignore this horrible thread, one of many, but I cannot stand by while people discuss rape this way, falsely accuse me of dismissing someone’s abuse and others call discussing rape a derailment. This whole thread is a derailment

Oxytocindeficient YY

There have been posters on the thread who have repeatedly derailed for their own agendas, often completely inappropriately
Their response to you was appalling
My comment about derailing was to them, not to you.
Apologies if this was not clear.
Flowers

Oxytocindeficient · 01/02/2019 13:20

As the thread is about events in Washington, its a shame that persistant derails prevent consideration of the speeches and issues raised within them.

There’s another thread to have discussions about Washington though, which is a lot more constructive.

The fact someone continues to misrepresent my response earlier, while having nothing to say about Early’s ( not Every ) lack of acknowledgement of my rape is astounding to me. The question was asked about rape, not general abuse but RAPE. The talking over of rape victims in this thread is just as gross as the initial dismissive question posed.

The fact is, all those issues are going to be majorly affected if marginalised women have to tailor their language to suit males, have to admit males in their spaces even if it is traumatising, and basically, we as a society cannot acknowledge the biological observable material differences between males and females. That is the big issue, not ‘ a few trans in bathrooms’, but the basis of how we fight for the liberation of women from men. How the fuck are we supposed to do that if there is no such thing as ‘women’ anymore?!

I hate I’ve gone against my wish to ignore this horrible thread, one of many, but I cannot stand by while people discuss rape this way, falsely accuse me of dismissing someone’s abuse and others call discussing rape a derailment. This whole thread is a derailment.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/02/2019 13:16

For this woman (a former Democrat who left the party over this issue), this is not a political debate about who's getting into bed with who, it is about her daughter's health and well-being

To my way of thinking, finding solace with that particular group is a little like the three little pigs looking to the big bad wolf for shelter. But, as said agree to disagree and I'm off for a while now.

Floisme · 01/02/2019 13:16

Who do you think women like this should turn to, while the left is busy cheering while a teenage boy gets castrated on TV and teenage girls are having mastectomies?
I agree and I think it's a really important point. I've said this already but if I was one of those mothers, I would talk to anyone I thought might help.

I am really starting to despise the left. Not only will they not help, they have the nerve to lecture you if you dare look anywhere else for help. They're like an abusive ex, still trying to tell you who you should and shouldn't talk to.

OldCrone · 01/02/2019 13:16

Here's the screenshot from OrchidInTheSun's post that I mentioned in my previous post.

Who can mothers like this turn to if they want to be ideologically pure? The left doesn't seem to care about the damage to children being done by trans ideology - it celebrates it.

Posie Parker in the USA
R0wantrees · 01/02/2019 13:11

Summary from Natasha Chart, WoLF (article linked previously)

(extract)
"I can tell our friends and supporters that we and our allies raised these issues with our representatives’ staff, Democrats and Republicans, and with other conservatives we spoke to over the last few days, many of whom had heard the Heritage panel and were deeply moved, both by the stories of the parents and by Julia Beck’s testimony of being ostracized from within her own community. We told them that …

… 13-year-old girls are getting cosmetic mastectomies in this country, and some 14-year-old girls are being put into menopause, also for cosmetic reasons, with seemingly no care for how early loss of ovarian function can shorten one’s lifespan and increase the risk of cardiovascular disease.

… parents can lose their children in some states if they don’t go along with pronoun changes, with puberty blockers, and with cross-sex hormones administered to their children.

… by including gender identity under “conversion therapy” bans, therapists feel they must stop working with patients to explore distress over trauma, abuse, personality disorders, depression, or developmental disorders, as soon as a child says they have a gender identity.

… “informed consent” means a waiver of the right to sue, and the on-demand distribution of powerful hormone treatments without any required checks for contraindicated health conditions.

… clinicians issue indirect suicide threats to worried parents to force them to comply with the destruction of their own minor children’s reproductive organs.

… women in prison are being forced to bunk and shower with violent male offenders, and there’s no way to stop such men being put in with women, in violation of these women’s international human rights, under a sex self-identification standard. We gave them the examples of three violent men in the justice system right now — Michelle Kosilek in MA, Synthia China Blast in NY, and Dana Rivers in CA — who will have the absolute right to be incarcerated with women if the gender identity provisions of the Equality Act are passed into federal law.

… women in homeless and domestic violence shelters are being forced to room and shower with men because the shelters are afraid of either losing federal funding or being sued by angry, entitled men. Vulnerable women have been kicked out of shelters for complaining about being forced to room with men.

… autistic girls are ridiculously over-represented among children and young people claiming a gender identity, and this current rush to sterilize them so they will “look right,” or to tell them that their real problem is that they are “in the wrong body,” is a eugenicist violation of their human rights and an abdication of responsibility by those who should protect them.

… girls in school will have to deal with menstruation in bathrooms where boys are allowed to walk in.

… girls’ and women’s sports are being destroyed, and with them, scholarship and mentorship opportunities for women and girls. (In one of the meetings where we brought up sports, a conservative man we were talking to volunteered on his own that he knew that was a road to college for many girls and he was quite concerned.)

… women and girls will lose the right under self-identification, and the total elimination of sex as a bona fide occupational qualification, to request female medical or intimate care, or a female supervisor for state-mandated urine tests, or a female security officer to pat them down. Conversely, women holding such employment will lose the right under the Equality Act’s gender identity provisions to refuse to perform intimate care or examinations of male clients.

… Muslim women cannot relax or function as if they were in private at all in shelters or accommodations shared with males, many Christian women would be very offended and worried as well, and we have concern for them. But religious exemptions will not protect these women from all these other circumstances, and also secular women like myself do not wish to be forced to undress in front of men or be confronted by unwanted male nudity.

… in the UK, people can be questioned by police for their opinions on these topics, or for calling the removal of children’s genitals “castration,” or for talking about public figures in the gender identity movement who are paid by the government to advocate for the sterilization of children.

… that advocacy for gender identity and the sex industry travel together, and that men who solicit commercial sex and share porn of themselves online have been given the power by Twitter to censor public health conversations about teenage girls.

… based on the definitions in the Equality Act, “gender identity” protects no definable class of persons, and has nothing to do with gender dysphoria or any other medical condition or diagnosis that anyone may be concerned about alleviating.

… if people are genuinely concerned about mental health or suicidality, it’s odd that the policy goal comes down to allowing people into different rooms, changing a few letters on official forms, hormones, plastic surgery, and enrolling the whole world in their treatment plan, rather than asking for something like more counseling services.

… they have barely heard these concerns before because journalists and doctors alike are worried they will lose their jobs for talking about it, and so we asked them to please, as elected representative who cannot be no-platformed, speak out about this so that families who are worried about what this means can hear that they aren’t alone with their questions and concerns.

… we don’t want anyone harmed, or denied employment or housing because they like to dress quirky or want to have an unusual name, but when the law is prohibited from seeing sex, you can’t ban discrimination based on sex stereotypes; a stronger prohibition of sex stereotype discrimination would protect everyone the bill is meant to support.

"They listened. They brought other colleagues to listen. They asked us questions and engaged, many of them with a concern for women that, while it does not necessarily come from the same place as ours or take the same form, was sincere." (continues)

Juells · 01/02/2019 13:09

I've just watched Meghan Murphy on the video linked earlier. She's very good at making her points.

OldCrone · 01/02/2019 13:08

YetAnotherSpartacus
Have a look at the screenshot in the post by OrchidInTheSun this morning at 05:59. People might have missed it because her post was mainly about Posie.

The screenshot is of a post by the mother of an autistic teenage girl who identifies as transgender and wants to medically transition asap. The only support this woman could find was from Heritage who agreed to host the event. For this woman (a former Democrat who left the party over this issue), this is not a political debate about who's getting into bed with who, it is about her daughter's health and well-being.

Who do you think women like this should turn to, while the left is busy cheering while a teenage boy gets castrated on TV and teenage girls are having mastectomies?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/02/2019 13:07

As a rape survivor, it didn't feel like an important rhetorical question. It felt like goody fuckery

As someone who remembers the days of coathangers and possible bleeds to death in emergency departments it felt to me like a series of valid questions.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/02/2019 13:04

No the question was posed in such a way to pose a false binary

There was no binary. Just different potential (possibly real) scenarios and questions - and ones that deserve asking given the current context.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 01/02/2019 13:04

Apologies R0wan ive stopped now honest

OrchidInTheSun · 01/02/2019 13:03

As a rape survivor, it didn't feel like an important rhetorical question. It felt like goody fuckery

R0wantrees · 01/02/2019 13:02

As the thread is about events in Washington, its a shame that persistant derails prevent consideration of the speeches and issues raised within them.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/02/2019 13:02

Not necessarily the whole post....if thats not the case then it needs to be clarified as ive lost count of the posts ive mainly disagreed with but have specifically quoted the bit i think is good

As a veteran marker of too many essays I also know that selected quotes or bits of quotes can misrepresent. I always try and look at the bigger picture to give context.

I suspect we are going to have to agree to disagree too.

Derailing or not, I think that Every had some excellent points to make and in the spirit of real debate designed at optimising our defence of women's rights I think she should have been listened to a little more instead of dismissed. I've thought the same about many women who have spoken up about their reticence at making alliances with the right in what I have read over the last couple of days.

My case is rested. I'm also off for a while.

Swipe left for the next trending thread