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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Posie Parker in the USA

436 replies

lucydo · 31/01/2019 09:43

I am aware that there already long threads on this, but would anyone mind just giving me the basic information about what so many people are objecting to? Is it just that she has attended an event run by a Right Wing organisation? Or is there more?
It just looks like a pile-on by left-wingers on my twitter feed.
In all events, it's a TRA dream - divide and rule.
Again, before anyone flames me, I know that there are 2 long threads on this, but I gave up the will to read them after people going on about breakfasts for post after post.

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Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/01/2019 21:21

If we can't legally distinguish between the sexes, how can we define what is an issue facing women (as opposed to an issue facing 'people')?

We have had the Gender Recognition Act 2004 in force for 15 years, allowing change of gender and we seem to have managed. It is a problem in prisons and refuges and sports, but having a procedure for changing gender does not mean we cannot legally distinguish between the sexes. The law clearly distinguishes between them.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/01/2019 21:18

What campaign, out of those you mention, are you currently working on and what are you doing exactly?

I don't want to out myself, but welfare-benefit reform and domestic violence mainly. Others too. I have done and currently do quite a lot to seek to improve women's lives.

Also, I didn't make the original middle class comment, but if someone thinks that the very small number of trans women out there are the biggest threat to women that there is, then I would wonder at how informed they are.

AnneHutchinson · 31/01/2019 21:18

KindofAGeek

I have no idea at all what you're talking about.

Oxytocindeficient · 31/01/2019 21:17

But for now there’s a lot of hypothetical scaremongering and a lot of disregard for actual issues facing woman

This is an actual issue facing women. Nobody is disregarding anything by talking about this one. Scaremongering? For goodness sake that is so textbook TRA.

OvaHere · 31/01/2019 21:15

It's the drip drip effect of policy creep. Of course protections won't vanish overnight but badly thought out legal decisions will render a lot of things moot and create loopholes that people will exploit. There is a lot of that going on in Canada currently.

And lets not forget that Stonewall last year were actively lobbying to remove sex as a protected characteristic. The only reason it didn't happen is because women discovered what they were up to and came together to say no.

Doesn't mean the next attempt at a similar thing won't fly under the radar until it's too late.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/01/2019 21:15

If you've watched the whole speech and only taken those points, you didn't really concentrate.

I didn't say those were the only points she made- I said that those were some points she had made. I originally brought this up because someone said that no GC feminists had ever said that gender reassignment should not be a protected characteristic in law. I can also find videos where Posie says that trans women are perverts with fetishes if you like. Julia does make other points in her speech too, but the 'trans is not a real thing' is something that I have heard from her more than once and from Anne Ruzylo too.

Oxytocindeficient · 31/01/2019 21:14

If you think it is, you have very little awareness of what is happening- whether that is because you have middle class privilege or some other reason.

This is so rude. Why is that your only fall-back to women with a different opinion? I’m mixed race, I got kicked out of home by my violent father at 16 and I’ve had nothing from parents since. I’m very aware of a lot of different issues facing women because many affect me, my friends or my family in the past. I really wish you could discuss this without just making really ugly assumptions and being so rude about certain groups of women. It’s not an intelligent way to debate at all. The fact you cannot see that identifying ourselves, women as a sex class, is the basis from which all these other issues are campaigned on, speaks volumes to me.

What campaign, out of those you mention, are you currently working on and what are you doing exactly?

R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 21:13

And surely her slides and talk were prepared without her knowing that Maria was going to be assaulted? I don't see the relevance that this happened earlier the same day.

As I said earlier, I think context is important.
(it also helps explain the noise from outside during Julia Long's talk)

OldCrone · 31/01/2019 21:12

But I still cannot see how this is the biggest issue facing women.

If we can't legally distinguish between the sexes, how can we define what is an issue facing women (as opposed to an issue facing 'people')?

KindOfAGeek · 31/01/2019 21:12

AnneHutchinson

Cool name. I too have studied colonial history.

Why do you feel the name to c&p from Heritage without a link?

AnneHutchinson · 31/01/2019 21:12

Rape crisis centres and rape counselors too.

The US Equality Act states that where certain occupations require that they be filled by a certain sex, gender identity must be treated as sex.
That nurse providing your cervical smear? Tough luck if you asked for a female HCP, the person in front of you is female if they say they are.

Service providers like, ahem, working class women doing waxing out of their home, must treat gender identity as equivalent to sex -- we could call this the Balldemort Provision.

Shelters for homeless women, too, must treat gender identity as equivalent to sex. Homeless women must be made to bunk with males, or leave -- as is in fact already happening.

As for period poverty, I fail to see how that's any different from poverty overall, which in the US falls disproportionately on mothers. At least mothers have the right to equal employment. Oh but wait -- for purposes of employment, gender identity now equals sex. A firm hiring 50% men and 50% TW is not discriminating against women. And every employer knows TW can't get pregnant.

R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 21:10

Funkyfunkybeat12 If you've watched the whole speech and only taken those points, you didn't really concentrate.
Perhaps some confirmation bias at work?

Earlywalker · 31/01/2019 21:07

If men want to get in on issues facing woman then fine, maybe people will pay attention more when it affects men.

Do you seriously believe that allowing transwoman to become ‘legally woman’ will mean that all laws currently protecting woman’s issues will suddenly disappear?

That if we can’t decide what a woman is suddenly abortion will become illegal? Or that we’ll no longer have protection with breastfeeding etc? Do you think judges are that stupid?

If it ever comes close to things like that, I’m there with you. But for now there’s a lot of hypothetical scaremongering and a lot of disregard for actual issues facing woman.

Yes transwoman being in refuges can be an issue, nowhere close to the actual issue of the domestic abuse that put them there though.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/01/2019 21:05

Re, Domestic violence, what about refuges? They’re affected by this, as we know.

That is true and I think refuges and prisons need to be single sex. But I still cannot see how this is the biggest issue facing women. If you think it is, you have very little awareness of what is happening- whether that is because you have middle class privilege or some other reason.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/01/2019 21:03

R0wan, I watched the whole thing from start to finish. She definitely says in it that she does not think transgender is a real thing and she goes through a long list of photos saying 'here's a man'. And surely her slides and talk were prepared without her knowing that Maria was going to be assaulted? I don't see the relevance that this happened earlier the same day.

Oxytocindeficient · 31/01/2019 20:55

Re, Domestic violence, what about refuges? They’re affected by this, as we know.

sackrifice · 31/01/2019 20:53

Poor rape conviction rapes, benefit cuts, employment issues, 1/5 woman have been sexually assaulted, 1/4 woman experience domestic abuse, inadequate health care provisions for woman, period poverty

If we cannot define women, how can these be seen as problems that women face?

Oxytocindeficient · 31/01/2019 20:53

Hate to say it but to me this view always sounds like you have white middle class privilidge bursting out of the seams.

Oh that old chestnut. Pretty derogatory and inaccurate. It’s a nice way to dismiss people’s comcerns though huh. If you can’t see how this affects all those issues, that’s not our problem. Rape affects all colours and all classes. It will also be a big problem if men are allowed in our spaces. Honestly this tactic of weaponising ‘white middle class women’ is pretty gross to me.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 31/01/2019 20:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

R0wantrees · 31/01/2019 20:47

And I know that on here and on twitter, there are plenty who agree wholeheartedly with that, sadly. Julia Long did a whole talk, which was essentially going through a bunch of photos of trans women saying 'here's a man in a dress with nail-varnish' etc, as well as saying that because there is no such thing as transgender, there is no such thing as transphobia.

Funky this is often referred to by TRAs who sometimes have edited parts or have not seen the whole speech.
It was given at the event after Maria Machlachlan was assaulted at Speaker's Corner by T. Wolf in 2017.

Julia Long:
'What is Gender?' Speakers' Corner event,' 13 September 2017

Earlywalker · 31/01/2019 20:38

And some of us do think it is the most important issue facing women
Hate to say it but to me this view always sounds like you have white middle class privilidge bursting out of the seams.

Poor rape conviction rapes, benefit cuts, employment issues, 1/5 woman have been sexually assaulted, 1/4 woman experience domestic abuse, inadequate health care provisions for woman, period poverty.

Let’s take it worldwide and discuss the fact that woman can be stoned for being raped, be denied access to education, forced to marry before they’ve even reached puberty, FGM.

Just to name a few.

OvaHere · 31/01/2019 20:34

Well said Anne. This is why it's the most important issue - because it underpins everything else.

If we lose the right to our biological sex class it is like pulling a Jenga piece from the bottom of the stack. Nothing above it has any stability.

AnneHutchinson · 31/01/2019 20:04

Trans people have greater federal employment protection than gays and lesbians do, currently., under a Supreme Court decision Hopkins v. Price-Waterhouse which ruled in favor of a woman not promoted to partner for not dressing femininely enough. Lower courts and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission have intrepreted that decision to extend to gender presentation by trans employees: if a woman cannot be discriminated against for not conforming to gendered expectations in appearance, neither can anyone else.

There is NO federal law against discriminating against gays and lesbians in employment and housing, though many states have enacted such laws.

Similarly, many states have enacted laws in support of gender identity self id -- mostly along the west coast.

Women's equality was only included in the Civil Rights Act as a joke -- a congressman thought it would be amusing to add "sex" to the list of protected characteristics and would help torpedo passage of the bill. He was wrong. Title VII and TItle IX to the Civil Rights Act are the only laws extending equal rights to women in the US. We do not have Constitutional equality, although we have the right to vote, because the Equal Rights Amendment wasn't ratified by enough states. There simply are not robust legal protections for women in the US.

Nancy Pelosi's Equality Act would add sexual orientation and gender identity to the list of protected characteristics under the Civil Rights Act. What we are seeing, already, are rulings in the lower courts that gender identity presents a greater burden to the trans student than sex discrimination does to female students, and therefore female students must yield rights to privacy etc. to trans students.

The Boyertown case is proceeding through the courts, and there is hope the Supreme Court will hear it and rule that "sex" does not mean "gender identity" and that females have rights to bodily privacy in schools.

(it's very important to understand, too, that both the right to birth control and the right to abortion in the US are predicated on the Supreme Court's ruling that people have a right to bodily privacy. If this right is undermined by rulings in favor of transgirls, it could have spilloever effects regarding the entire premise of the right to bodily privacy, just as the constant refrain that men get pregnant too can have spilloever effects into anti-pregnancy discrimination law and regarding the rights of men over a pregnancy.)

If Pelosi's Equality Act is passed, it will still be illegal to discriminate against women in favor of men in employment, education, and housing. But it will NOT be illegal to count transgirls and transwomen as women for the purpose of demonstrating one has not discriminated against girls and women. And women will lose ALL female set-asides and safe spaces, iincluding prisons and refuges, because we do not have any federal law allowing for certain provisions of sex segregation where proportionate to achieve a legitimate aim.

Already, under the premise that gender identity = sex, we have males winning girls state athletic championships in two states. Since those championships are a route to college scholarships, this is a direct financial hit to females. Expect more of the same, as word of the viability of this move spreads to parents of sons.

Funkyfunkybeat12 · 31/01/2019 20:03

Oh I see, you mean JL and PP specifically? I thought you meant GC feminism more generally, and I have never heard that suggested. If PP or JL have suggested that, shame on them.

Yes, I meant them. And I know that on here and on twitter, there are plenty who agree wholeheartedly with that, sadly. Julia Long did a whole talk, which was essentially going through a bunch of photos of trans women saying 'here's a man in a dress with nail-varnish' etc, as well as saying that because there is no such thing as transgender, there is no such thing as transphobia.

Bluestitch · 31/01/2019 19:57

Chelsea Clinton is getting a hell of a lot of pushback on twitter. Women are angry and this stunt has raised a discussion that they were being denied.

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