The logic of non-binary/ gender-fluid

I wonder if the OFAB non-binary people (possibly the OMABs too but I spend more time pondering the motivations of female people) are trying to get away from personal past trauma (or avoid the cultural trauma experienced by many women).

My son (18) is in his first year at uni and has a ‘transmasculine’ friend who told him, explicitly that they don’t really like trans people or trans politics, they ‘just didn’t want to grow up to be a woman’.
This female born person is attracted to men and thus self describes as gay - I can’t help but worry they’ve swapped an anticipated heartbreak for an impossible dream... it’s like they don’t dare to interact with men without wearing a ‘man’ disguise (and that they find gay men less intimidating than straight men).

Non-binary for young females maybe feels like a half way house, an attempt at avoiding a lived experience of womanhood but without having to walk amongst actual men?

Maybe I need to lurk www.reddit.com/r/detrans/ less, but I am really sad and scared for young women at present.

(That said, I did come across a FABULOUSLY flamboyant non-binary person via Instagram explore feed. Imagine a long haired Freddy Mercury in satin slacks and stilettos. I do feel sad that society now dictates that a man can’t wear a moustache AND heels and still be a man - we deffo seem to have regressed from the 70s/80s/90s. Anyway, I thought this person looked marvellous, far more striking than Travis Alaburger - wouldn’t want either of them in the women’s change in Topshop though 🤷‍♀️)

Honestly? Non-binary is your common-or-garden first world problem: hyper-privileged twits identifying into oppression because it's the only thing mummy and daddy can't buy them.

Jesus I used to wear ball gowns and dms when I were a lass (and had a suede head). Feh kids today eh?

I wear doc martens with floral dresses. How I don't have an identity crisis everytime I leave the house I don't know.
Non binary is bullshit because literally everyone except barbie and gi joe is non binary. Wait...
Even barbie can drive and be a scientist now days so even she's non binary.
Gender is a binary. Great. Sex is not.

Validate what exactly? These kids watch too much America’s reality shows in my opinion. It’s like trying to argue philosophy with a parrot.

The 'right' to validation. However little credibility it has.

I am perplexed daily by the term non binary trans person.

I think it's all just smoke and mirrors so they can tantrum about something.

They bang on about their 'rights,' I'm very unclear what rights they don't have.

Datun, yes, I do think because of the trans umbrella being as big as the canopy of the stars, it's part of the strategy to suck it all in.

But I also think there is a difference between the really creepy types and the navel-gazing YouTube pseuds who like to do performance poetry with cream fairy lights behind them...

In fact, were I of a mind to give myself shite Tumblr labels, I could claim genderfluid quite easily, because even just in clothing choice, some days I wear men's collared shirts, neck ties and clump boots, and other days I enjoy full corseted Victorian regalia, purely dependent on my mood.

In agree floral. I also think it's quite interesting how many trans people go out of their way to validate non-binary.

To me, that absolutely smacks of legitimising part time cross dressing.

I am not surprised to see the many replies pointing out there is no logic to it, and the connection of non binary to the trans movement doesnt really make any sense.

I found it quite revealing on that video Fox and Owl did of a trans conference where they chanted their mantras 'Transwomen are women! Transmen are men! Non binary is valid!' because that last phrase seemed even more of an attempt to convince themselves than the first two. I suspect that's because the trans edifice is built on quite strict Genderism and non binary goes a long way to undermining that so is a harder sell in that movement.

But there is interesting psychology, despite the contradictions. Once you introduce an idea of a 'spectrum' that works by conflating sex and gender, it does make some internal sense to have people who fall in a sort of central position rather than either end of the spectrum.

Obviously, it's based on a simple category mistake - the mixing of bio sex and gendered personality means that people who are just really straightforward and not stereotypes think they can't actually be definitively either sex, which is demonstrable nonsense, but understandable on one level.

Then you do have the types who collect identities like pin badges and claim to be non binary because it tres interesting. See also: queer.

Genderfluid sort of operates the same way but seems less like an attempt to escape and much more attention seeking to me, tbh.

Doesn’t stop bunce snaffling women’s awards though does it?

Pip Bunce is a common or garden cross dresser with AGP overtones.

I really can't see gender fluidity as having any logical basis other than cross dressing arousal.

It doesn't come from the same place as women insisting they're non binary to stop being treated as lesser than ( as opposed to the attention seekers who claim non binary because they like doctor martins one day and florals the next).

Non-binary can be categorised into:
A) people fleeing gender/sex role stereotypes
B) people enforcing sex role stereotypes. Cf Pip Bunce.

Gender is a social construct and sex is biologically determined?

It makes no sense at all. Similarly how can some people proclaim that sex is non binary but at the same time vehemently claim that they they were born into the wing body and are the opposite sex???

That is that sad part of the current conflagration of non binary into the medicalisation of young women. My tits didn't stop me from taking part in male dominated activities. My persona as Ditun describes it was unstereotyped. That was possible in the less gendered 70s when we had rock gods like Chrissie Hind, Patti Smith ETC. to admire and emulate.

Im a long time lurker.

I don't think its a goady qu OP - obviously there are ways of questioning things and everyone will have come across people who do deliberately goad - but i had always thought asking qus was a good thing. How do we ever understand new things if we don't ask. How do we ever change things if we dont ask and challenge.

Anyway. I dont know the answer to your qus. I don't understand it either. But i am uneasy at any situation in life when it seems prohibited to even ask for clarification. I dont think blindly accepting things is healthy or useful - it doesnt promote anyone's cause.

Asking qus is what led me to lurk here. Although ive probably got more now than ever before.

Non-binary seems to me to be the good bits of gender-bender 80s dressing, but with the addition of the elective trans surgeries and synthetic hormones.

The observed female at birth but completely Male presenting person on the TV show with Graham Linehan had had a mastectomy and grown a beard, but had recently switched from self describing as a transman to to self describing as non-binary. Which is probably easier on one’s mental health than demanding everyone suspend reality and accept them as a man, but throws up all sorts of questions relating to internalised misogyny - because their ideal of a default human, free of gender restraints, is a male one.

Some days I wear a dress
Some days I wear jeans
Some days I wear makeup
Some days I can’t be bothered even to brush my hair
Some days I feel bolshy and outgoing
Some days I feel vulnerable and want to crawl back into bed

Oh my god that must make me......... normal?

Neither brain will do any cooking though, is that non binary?

When I'm being an absolute arsehole it dawns on me that my man brain took over whilst I was not looking.

Being non-binary is not the same as being transgender. And actually completely conflicting, despite wanting to be lumped together.

It makes absolute sense, to feminists, to try and assume a persona that means you're not treated as either male or female. It's kind of the whole point of being gender critical.

So I get that, definitely.

Where non-binary people and reality part ways is they conflate gender roles with sex.

You don't want to be treated in the way a man or woman is treated.. Fine. Because society insists on treating them differently in every area of life. But you have to be treated as your actual sex, on the few occasions when it counts. Medically, sex segregation, etc.

I wish they would say I don't want to be treated as the female gender, not 'I'm not a woman/man.' Because normal people think they're unutterably ridiculous. And you lose the message.

If one is gender-fluid, so has a woman day on Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and a man day on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday and they split the sundays a week about, does that mean they transition every night except for when they’re a man on Saturday and Sunday or a woman on Sunday and Monday?

It sounds a bit confusing to me, and exhausting. Wouldn’t that mean 12 brain transplants in a fortnight? Do they have a different brain each time or do they just alternate the same two brains? Maybe they keep the one they’re not using in a jar, ‘The Man With Two Brains’ style, or should I say ‘The Gender-Fluid Person With Two Brains’ style.

That's Trans Formers, you cis former scum.

Mea maxima culpa! I submit to ritual humiliation immediately.