Lotl magazine: “What Do We Do About Women With A Penis

Cassie captures it completely at the end pointing out that the whole article is irrelevant if you don't believe TWAW.

Most people think being pro-trans is like let's just be nice to the gay castrated man with big mental health problems who think's he's a woman. When they learn about lady penis and lesbian TW and being an actual woman being the norm they start objecting to TWAW. Yes, some people stick with the lunacy but not many from what I'm seeing in real life. Men are especially harsh when judging other men's motivations for getting their dicks out around women.

Quite often, the impression I get from TW is that they’re ‘feel like a woman’ is actually, ‘feel like the projected idea of women’

How can it be anything else?
I don't know how it feels to be another man. Why would a woman know how it feels to be another woman?
We assume that we must (typically) feel similar to other men or women, but we can't know for certain. All we really know is 'self'.

Seems to me the don't much like feeling as they do, but like something they see in a particular woman, or subset of women, and convince themselves that the feelings they have match how such a woman would feel - ergo, the feel like their idealised interpretation of how their idealised woman would feel!

I'm not Eric Clapton, but I love guitar. It would be very easy of me, especially as a young man, to convince myself I'm secretly more like him than I am myself... because I'd rather be him than me (having idealised how amazing it must be to be him).

If people around me are also saying 'you have talent, you're just in the wrong body to fully realise it... you can take a drug, or have an op to realise that dream' - then it's going to be very persuasive.

I can't read to the end of that article.

In my 48 years as a woman on this planet - a woman who recognises that a penis is a penis is a penis - I came to realise a long time ago, that men will do just about anything to come into contact with women in various states of undress. Our whole bloody patriarchal culture is based around it ffs, porn is based on it, everything from the little boys at primary trying to peek at little girl's knickers, to men at business lunches in strip clubs, is based on it.

I still didn't foresee this. They can just STOP trying to gaslight us that penises should be able to come anywhere near women-only spaces

Sorry, *their.

This does read like a deluded male fantasy of what women are like. Quite often, the impression I get from TW is that they’re ‘feel like a woman’ is actually, ‘feel like the projected idea of women’ - as perpetuated by pornography, men and media. Because no one really wants to hear what the real female experience is like. It’s such a naive movement. It’s a falsehood.

That part made me think birds of a feather flock together. Of course Cassie has horrible friends.

(Assuming these are actual people and not The Lurkers Support Me In Email.)

I feel terrible that women might be ‘shocked’ to see a wheelchair and wheelchair user in a change room.

I want the shocks I cause to be for something beyond daring to exist in public.

A person with a penis who wants to wank in front of 19 women at a ‘women only’ event doesn’t sound like a person with a docile, patient, hesitant sexuality.

Sounds like a bloke.

It's also assuming that 'no' isn't a considered response.
It is.

And which sex do we associated wheedling sexual coercion with? Hint - it's not the one that tends to go on yoni retreats.

I can still never get over the fevered defence of the 'cotton ceiling' ideas that says "We're not saying you have to sleep with a transwoman. We just want you to reflect on your prejudices if you won't even consider it."

Like they think it's unacceptable to actively force sex, but wheedling coercion because you're a bigot if you don't at least think about it is fine.

Cassie, you know shit about consent and boundaries.

After my failed attempt to read the article, I am now reading the thread backwards. I love you lot!

That article in the op is so creepy I just couldnt read it. I would have started dry retching if I continued.

Bleuuuugh.

I consider myself pretty open minded, liberal, and have no issues trying to accommodate trans in society. I might be wrong, but I'd like to think I'm a reasonable bloke, reasonable intelligence and fairly rational, but they can't persuade me.
I suspect there are lots of other men who haven't been persuaded either, but haven't taken much of an interest in the topic. Most of the men I know fall into one of two camps:

1. The TWAW camp - because it's 'right' to acknowledge them as women. When I've asked them about this, it almost always to 'do the right' thing by them e.g. decent blokes who don't want to offend so go along with it. They are NOT declaring them to be actual women per se, just backing what they believe to be 'accepting trans people'.

2. The crude 'Blokes in drag bollocks' camp - this lot are usually the sexist ones too and tend to be the ones who'll make sexual comments frequently.

The second group stand no chance of changing their views, whilst the first group do. The first group just tend not to have thought about all the consequences of 'TWAW'. As soon as you discuss it in depth, they come to the same conclusions that most here have - they want to accept them, and do the right thing by them, but they are not actual women - thus there needs to be limits. Quite what those limits are is a matter of opinion, but amongst my friends, I've yet to meet a single man who thinks they should 100% unfettered access to every woman's place, or 100% ability to hide their true sex (i.e. for medical reasons, they should have to declare their true sex).

This (in part) is probably why they don't spend their time trying to persuade men.

'Women with a penis' presumably can drink their tea from Russell's teapot.

It's a bit like "what do you do about the sharks with laser beams on their heads", isn't it? Nothing, cause they don't exist.

What Do We Do About The Woman With A Penis?
What Do We Do About The Woman With A Penis?
What Do We Do About The Woman With A Penis?
Earlye in the morning?

Put them in a boat until they acknowledge biological reality
Put them in a boat until they acknowledge biological reality

etc

To the tune of 'What Shall We Do With The Drunken Sailor?

What Do We Do About The Woman With A Penis?
What Do We Do About The Woman With A Penis?
What Do We Do About The Woman With A Penis?
Earlye in the morning?

(Hoo-ray and up she rises?)

Oh how I miss all the old lesbian (female only) meet ups, where we sat round drinking tea and talking about our vags And coming up with long strings of descriptors for our sexual potency... oh wait, no, I must be misremembering.

To me these sorts of articles read as a male lament about how sad and unfair it is to be denied access to the sort of expensive quasi hippie retreat at which exceptionally slim, toned white women do yoga in the woods before engaging in some sort of GOOP esque steam your own vagina with organic herbs and then insert your magical yoni egg event. Sort of an updated version of the old male fantasy about women having sexy pillow fights at slumber parties.

Yeah, I thought the cotton ceiling didn't exist. Didn't wassername head honcho of Stonewall categorically refuse to accept any lesbians anywhere were being pressured to accept penis? Despite many (actual, female) lesbians writing to her describing their experiences of this?

The AWA are constantly brushing this away as myth, never happens, you're scaremongering and obviously completely transphobic too, if you talk about how lesbians are being at the very least being guilt-tripped about their sexuality, and at worst actually punched (it happened in the US) and abused for turning down penis.

All of this is predicated, of course, on the basic premise that trans women are women. For some, this is an easy concept to embrace. For some others it’s a point of debate. For others still, it’s unfathomable. The author of this article aims for dialogue with the first two groups – with the sad understanding that the third group will reject most of her premises.

Yup. And the third group cannot be stripped of their right to privacy, dignity, to not share in a quasi religious belief, and to not be compelled to participate in a lie, in order to facilitate males who would really like to be believed to be women.

The entitlement and the superiority is quite baffling. The writer doesn't really believe women are quite human.