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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trump military transgender ban goes ahead **This post was edited by MNHQ**

57 replies

Darnsquirrels · 22/01/2019 15:49

US Supreme Court allows Trump military transgender ban www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-46963426

OP posts:
QuietContraryMary · 22/01/2019 22:37

Usual shitty low-information reporting.

The Medical Standards for the army provided that those admitted should not have

"a [c]urrent or history of psychosexual conditions, including but not limited to transsexualism, exhibitionism, transvestism, voyeurism, and other paraphilias""

this was changed on June 30 2016 by the Obama administration to repeal this with respect to transgenderism.

Trump repealed this on August 2017, saying 'no transgender people in the military', but this was challenged, and on March 23 2018 put out a memo cancelling the August 2017 memo and allowing the DoD to put in place restrictions.

The Mattis recommendations, issued post-August 2017, and pre-March 2018 (so essentially less restrictive than Trump's initial 'no transgenders), which are essentially the current policy:

  • serving personnel who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria while the old policy was active can get treatment on the government dime, and serve as the gender of their choice

  • serving personnel who are/were diagnosed with gender dysphoria at any other time, can continue to serve, but only in their biological sex

  • anyone whose gender identity differs from their biological sex can serve, but only in their biological sex. If they also have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria they must have lived in their biological sex for 36 months prior to joining

The point I think that is being missed here, and it is a big one, is the drive to make 'gender identity' something that is NOT deemed to be a disorder. Indeed DSM-5 uses 'gender dysphoria' rather than 'gender identity disorder' in DSM-4. That's to avoid the nasty word 'disorder', which political trans activists want gone, because as with Mermaids they want to say that it's essentially a neutral choice whether your child is castrated, infertile & has osteoporosis at 25, or not.

I think it's important to see the vast, gaping chasm between the way the TRAs would have it, and something that approaches objectivity.

For example, if I am a male rapist and I 'identify' as a woman by putting on a dress and going into a female space, then the TRAs would say that my identity is true and valid, just because. But psychologists still, today, would say that that identity is a disorder that can be diagnosed, and one that has "clinically significant distress or impairment". If I get my rocks off by wanking in my wife's panties, then that's NOT by itself gender dysphoria.

So here we see in terms of the military policy first of all an attempt to pin down what the fuck it actually means to be trans. For a lot of people it's something you do on Twitter or whatever. 'I say I am a woman therefore I am'. That's however meaningless drivel. 'A man' who identifies as 'a woman', but who wears 'butch' clothing is indistinguishable from a 'man'. In fact a lot of people who claim to be transgender don't, er, seem to do anything about it.

And saying 'I'm carrying a handbag, so you must perceive me as a woman' is sexist and regressive as fuck. Men can carry handbags, it's nobody's business.

Clearly the diagnosis for gender dysphoria is a valid criterion here (even if there are nutters like Dr. W who will knock them out for £50 over the internet), and 'being trans' is a meaningless statement.

So you have someone who is diagnosed as suffering from gender dysphoria, hence IS trans, rather than someone pretending to be trans (the TRAs won't accept this criterion, but fuck them), and if they're not diagnosed with this then clearly the claim to be trans is ridiculous in the first place, and there's not even a QUESTION about their eligibility.

And then if they have the GD diagnosis they are saying

(a) no biological males serving as women (because duh) or vice versa
(b) we won't pay for your surgery (because why should they?)

They have been trying to say that the cost of the treatment 'is not that much' or whatever out of the army's trillions, but more fundamentally to what end are you trying to transition? If you are going to transition to 'become a woman' then how does that work with being a soldier?

And note that the policy memo literally ONLY says that the DoD can make policies (it doesn't place any restrictions of itself), so potentially if there are jobs/branches of the military where there are fewer issues then they can allow people to transition.

McTufty · 22/01/2019 22:36

Unless I’m missing something, I cant see any justification for this ban at all.

Voice0fReason · 22/01/2019 22:23

I don't like a blanket ban because that is just discrimination and there is no good reason for it.
However, if there are medical needs that are incompatible with service then that is acceptable.
And they cannot be allowed to have full access to women's private spaces.

This video is quite striking
www.facebook.com/NowThisPolitics/videos/2402145309816945/UzpfSTM0MTE2MzQwMjY0MDQ1NzoyMzkwODM2MTQ3NjczMTYy/

Weezol · 22/01/2019 22:06

This is about right wing evangelistic Christianity - the 'Don't ask don't tell' 'It's Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve' brigade.

Do not underestimate the size and power of this group in US politics and legislature.

merrymouse · 22/01/2019 21:18

I think this is a sop to people like Pence who believe that women and men shouldn't deviate from their gender roles, and probably don't believe women should be in the army either.

Obviously the army should be able to exclude people if they can't do their job, and everyone's privacy should be respected, but I don't think that is what this is about.

donajimena · 22/01/2019 21:16

I read that because they are entitled to free healthcare that trans could have the surgery/treatment whilst enlisted. Making them undeployable. I can see why they have put a stop to it. As a PP said if they have already been through transition surely they should be allowed to serve?

AspieAndProud · 22/01/2019 19:33

Growing up watching MASH I thought the point of dressing up as a woman was to get out of the army.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 22/01/2019 19:04

I recall "Zoe" the ex-navy seal who threatened Ben Shapiro in a neck hold on TV. I wouldn't want them in any women's unit.

I don't want to deny people rights however keeping things as sex-based is essential. So like Corp Klinger, wear a dress by all means, as a man

happydappy2 · 22/01/2019 18:31

Jennifer Pritzker is not going to be happy about this....they'll be looking to overturn this decision

Melanippe · 22/01/2019 18:29

But presumably no one IS being excluded purely because they're trans, but solely on whether or not their trans treatment would make them undeployable.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 22/01/2019 18:18

As long as medical requirements are met, I don't see how it can possibly be justifiable to exclude trans people from the military, or from any other job.

Exclusions on the basis of sex are occasionally necessary and proportional. There's no good reason to exclude anyone on the basis of trans status.

Bowlofbabelfish · 22/01/2019 18:18

itsall these are good points. I would say that ‘is able to meet all serving criteria’ would include using facilities of birth sex - ie if a serviceman/woman was able to do the job with no special treatment, and pass all physical and psych bars, they should serve.

No special treatment, no waivers, clean mental and physical bill of health - you serve. Any medication that anyone else wouldn’t be allowed, any demands to inconvenience other troops (Sanitary facilities) and you don’t.

4yearsnosleep · 22/01/2019 18:07

I've personally served with transgender people in the military and think this ban is ridiculous. If someone can meet the physical requirements they should be eligible. I'd be far more worried about the US military personnel deployed whilst prescribed anti-psychotic drugs than trans. Or the fact that they regularly prescribe uppers and downers to help personnel cope with the shift work; including pilots. If men and women can now serve on the frontline, then why not trans?

On the medication front I was prescribed contraceptives and mefenamic acid due to painful periods, should I have been excluded from the military and the tour I did in Afghanistan?

happydappy2 · 22/01/2019 17:48

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 22/01/2019 17:09

If someone identifies as trans, has no medication needs and is in every other way able to meet serving criteria they should serve

I'm not sure I do agree with this for a couple of reasons:

  1. I'm not sure if there are single sex spaces in the military, but if there are it would massively complicate things have a trans person there who would need to have facilities provided just for their needs.
  1. If a man believes that they are a woman or vv are they psychologically suitable to be serving?
nauticant · 22/01/2019 17:06

10,000 in 2,000,000 is 0.5% which fits in well with the percentage figures often suggested for Western countries including the US.

SanFranBear · 22/01/2019 17:06

My point being that whilst the amendment does seem to protect those serving personnel, that extremely low number implies there are approx 10k trans members of the military who are not protected? Why would that be unless it refers to the point made about medical costs.. but the actual cost is miniscule in the whole military budget ($716 billion in 2018) so this make a no sense either.

I'm inclined to agree with FWRLurker - this stems from bigotry.

OvaHere · 22/01/2019 17:04

If someone identifies as trans, has no medication needs and is in every other way able to meet serving criteria they should serve. If they don’t meet medical criteria they shouldn’t

Agree with this. Nobody should be banned on identity alone.

Having said that the insistence that trans people should not be considered unfit to serve is at odds with the narrative that is pushed about the high suicidal rate and severe mental health issues trans people suffer as a very oppressed and marginalised group.

I'm not sure you can have it both ways without questions being raised.

SanFranBear · 22/01/2019 17:01

Agreed - so wonder where the several hundred transgender people already serving openly came from as that seems very low.

Melanippe · 22/01/2019 16:48

SanFranBear the US military is nearly 2 million strong if you include reservists, so that number seems about reasonable.

SanFranBear · 22/01/2019 16:48

10790 transgender people in the miltary at mid 2017?

Sorry - my last sentence cropped

SanFranBear · 22/01/2019 16:46

The policy has been amended from Trumps idiotic blanket 'policy by tweet'..

Gen Mattis said the new policy would make exceptions for several hundred transgender people already serving openly or willing to serve "in their biological sex".

The above is an important distinction and appears to protect serving personnel although the BBC reality check does say there are 10,790?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40950946

Melanippe · 22/01/2019 16:45

If someone identifies as trans, has no medication needs and is in every other way able to meet serving criteria they should serve. If they don’t meet medical criteria they shouldn’t

Absolutely spot on.

BettyDuMonde · 22/01/2019 16:43

I agree - being trans should not be a disqualifier - not being medication dependent/being physically fit to serve should be the criteria, evenly applied to all comers.

This is one of the issues that really demonstrates how radfems are not the same as US conservatives.

This is the kind of transrights I used to think people were arguing for, and agreed with (still do).
Being able to sue a woman for refusing to wax your lady balls? Nope.

FWRLurker · 22/01/2019 16:42

Actually never mind. If this is accurate I might support this policy (since it’s not a ban).

He said the new policy would make exceptions for several hundred transgender people already serving openly or willing to serve "in their biological sex".

Although I think that it should only be relavent when privacy is an issue (eg trans people serving should be allowed to wear the uniform of their choice, but should not be showering with opposite sex).