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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My Meeting with Maria Miller MP

61 replies

IAmDavidLewis · 19/01/2019 18:53

As a Basingstoke resident, I was able to request a meeting with my MP, Maria Miller. This meeting took place on Friday, 11th January and I thought I’d share it with you, as I found it quite interesting and informative.

I asked her first about what she said back in 2016:

“...there seems to be an undercurrent of opinion among some that trans people shouldn’t be treated equally, even when they’ve had a legal change in their gender, and that in some way this is a threat to women; I simply reject that.

But [single-sex services, such as rape crisis centres] should be supporting trans women”

Versus what she said at the end of December:

“... focus on getting services right first and foremost, and also be clear that there is no threat to single-sex services, they are clearly protected in law”.

She does not consider what she said in December to be any kind of back-track, despite what Helen Lewis wrote.

She told me that there is no threat to single-sex spaces because there is an adequate risk assessment process that ensures a trans person is placed either somewhere that recognises their gender or recognises that women should be kept separate from that person. With regards to the justifiable and proportionate discrimination in the Equality Act, it’s “superfluous” because this risk assessment is already being done.

She said that there’s no evidence that trans women are going around raping women and girls, at least none that she has seen. Critics have to go to other countries (e.g. Canada) or to the prison service “which is segregated by gender for very specific reasons”. However, she did say to send any evidence of trans women being a danger to women and girls, “other than in prisons”.

She equated being trans today in the UK to being black in the 60s in the UK, basically that people fear what they don’t know, and equated Gender Dysphoria with homosexuality, in as much as neither should be considered mental health issues.

When I mentioned “unconditional self ID as a legal change of sex”, her response was surprising. She said no one in Government has said that the GRA consultation was suggesting unconditional self ID as a legal change of sex. In her mind, the only change being put forward is to remove the medical diagnosis. Whilst she didn’t say it explicitly, this indicates that she expects the rest of the criteria to remain in place (2 years in acquired gender, documentary proof, etc), so a meaningful transition would need to be evident for someone to gain a GRC.

Her reason for removing the medical diagnosis is that doctors often don’t have a clue about a suitable and respectful diagnosis process. She said there are questions such as “have you dressed as a woman for two years?” We were able to agree that’s a pretty bad question to ask anyone! Given a poor diagnosis process, the push to concentrate on improving services and support seems very sensible. She’s actually quite annoyed that self ID got pushed to the forefront.

In her mind, the only reason people are criticising trans ideology is transphobia itself. “They fear what they don’t know”... (okay then, explain Miranda and Debbie and Fionne and and and...). She mentioned Bangladesh as a place where society is accepting of trans women. She feels that schools have an important role in talking to students about transgenderism.

I made a strong statement about tackling gender stereotypes as part of the education that schools should undertake. She did agree with me, which felt a quite positive outcome. I said that I hoped it would be included as part of the GRA consultation, but she replied that it wouldn’t be as the scope of the consultation had already been determined.

She got a little annoyed with me when I said that “the other side” had safeguarding concerns about men who’d abuse the system. The Government, at least, does not want safeguards to be compromised. I did say about the stats showing that men and trans women have the same level of offending, indicating that transition didn’t actually reduce the danger posed by men. The reply? NAMALT. She also mentioned trans men, only in as much as no one seems to have a problem with them.

I felt she assumed I was mostly uninformed and pointed me to Stonewall and students at Queen Mary College, as “young people seem to get it”.

She repeated her line from the Fawcett Society Courage Calls: Ask Her To Stand event (“Trans women are women, that’s the law”), my only regret being I forgot to point out that the EHRC guidance now disagrees with her. Seems it’s quite difficult to interrupt an MP in full flow!

So the main thing is that she clearly believes a trans woman is someone who looks and acts like a woman, someone who is making or has made a meaningful transition. Just saying you are one isn’t enough in her opinion, it would seem. Regardless of GRC, if you try to “pass”, you’re a woman.

OP posts:
hackmum · 20/01/2019 07:56

She sounds very confused indeed.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 20/01/2019 07:41

I find it interesting that she rules out other countries such as Canada when Canada provides an object lesson in the pitfalls of self ID and pandering to the trans lobby in all things.

They also jump at any chance to tell us how progressive Malta et al are...

donquixotedelamancha · 20/01/2019 07:24

P.S. Well done OP. You made a great case there.

donquixotedelamancha · 20/01/2019 07:24

Does this suggest there may be a rethink of prison policy?

I don't think so. My impression is that prisons try to assess risk and segregate by sex when they can show it's necessary.

The problem is that between the EA and the GRA they sometimes have to put TW in women's prisons, even when there is a clear risk.

I'm sure Maria Miller sees that as prisons having a sensible, case by case policy- as opposed to being forced to weaken safeguards.

Ereshkigal · 20/01/2019 00:01

Great post, 2010Equality

Ereshkigal · 19/01/2019 23:59

The other thing here: is the bar really set at ‘well ladies, no more privacy and dignity for you! But you’re not being raped in any significant numbers so shut the fuck up and be grateful.’

It would appear so.

Socrates11 · 19/01/2019 23:54

"She said that there’s no evidence that trans women are going around raping women and girls, at least none that she has seen."

Oh. Dear.
Davina/David Aryton did.
Nicola/Ross Florida did.
Jessica Winfield/Martin Pontin did.
Lisa/Craig Hauxwell did.
Karen White/Stephen Wood did.
......actually just look at the ever growing list for rape and sexual assault on Trans Crimes UK...transcrimeuk.com/category/sexual-offences/rape-sexual-assault/
Oh never mind, if you haven't seen it it can't have happened eh?! What a quality MP 🙁

OldCrone · 19/01/2019 23:00

I don't think MM has thought about what she means at all. If she had, she might not have come out with Bangladesh as a forward-thinking, progressive state (which outlaws homosexuality).

OlennasWimple · 19/01/2019 22:55

I'm confused - is MM suggesting that we should follow Bangladesh and create a "third gender"? Surely that is not what she meant

OldCrone · 19/01/2019 22:48

She mentioned Bangladesh as a place where society is accepting of trans women.

Interesting example. A bit like suggesting Iran as an example of progressive thinking. Hijra are recognised as a 'third gender', but homosexuality is illegal.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Bangladesh#Recognition_of_same-sex_relationships

feministfairy · 19/01/2019 22:28

The woman's idiocy knows no bounds.
As she's so keen on Bangladesh as a sparkling example of a trans friendly society it might be worth advising her (not that she'll listen) that the charity Wateraid and Andrex are currently running a campaign to build toilets for women in Bangladesh because of their lack of access to them (just as she's busy removing toilets for women and girls in the UK).

www.wateraid.org/us/media/female-friendly-toilet-guide-wateraid-unicef

2010Equality · 19/01/2019 21:05

Well done for going and speaking to her. Do follow up with a letter.

Her response on single sex exemptions is so confused. Superfluous & risk assessment.... Confused

There are specific examples in the EA act which show that it's not all about excluding particular individuals on the basis of risk, but allowing single sex services where propionate means to legitimate aims (eg privacy, dignity)

Eg. The example on transexual exclusion "
A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. "

And the examples of single sex services:

  • cervical cancer screening service to be provided to women only, as only women need the service;
  • a fathers’ support group to be set up by a private nursery as there is insufficient attendance by men at the parents’ group;
  • a domestic violence support unit to be set up by a local authority for women only but there is no men-only unit because of insufficient demand;
  • separate male and female wards to be provided in a hospital;
  • separate male and female changing rooms to be provided in a department store;
  • a massage service to be provided to women only by a female massage therapist with her own business operating in her clients’ homes because she would feel uncomfortable massaging men in that environment.

There is nothing in the Equality Act that suggests that male transvestites should have rights to enter these services for women.

I'd ref her to the EHRC statement www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/our-statement-sex-and-gender-reassignment-legal-protections-and-language and ask her to push them for clear, consistent guidelines that are in line w the Equality Act

Bowlofbabelfish · 19/01/2019 21:04

The other thing here: is the bar really set at ‘well ladies, no more privacy and dignity for you! But you’re not being raped in any significant numbers so shut the fuck up and be grateful.’

Our politicical class are spineless careerists.

Bowlofbabelfish · 19/01/2019 20:57

She said that there’s no evidence that trans women are going around raping women and girls,

For the love of your deity of choice...
I wonder how many times we have to point out that it is the loopholes created that will allow any man in that are the issue?

Self ID makes all spaces MIXED SEX. It’s not that we are fearing a rampaging army of transwomen, Maria. Every transwoman in the UK could be a living saint - your policies MAKE THE SPACES MIXED SEX.

Are our politicians utterly unable to follow a cause—> consequence line of thinking, deliberately pushing this, or just not giving a toss because they’re political careerists?

I wonder if the loos at the HoC are going to be mixed sex? If not, I would like to know why.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 19/01/2019 20:57

I find it interesting that she rules out other countries such as Canada when Canada provides an object lesson in the pitfalls of self ID and pandering to the trans lobby in all things.

Canada is usually used as an example of a country where trans rights have been implemented without any impact on the safety of women and girls. To not want to use Canada as a shining example, MM must have heard news to the contrary.

WSPU · 19/01/2019 20:21

Thanks for meeting her and reporting back. I found what she said really depressing, not least because she STILL doesn’t seem to have a grip on the law or the implications of the GRA on it.

Ereshkigal · 19/01/2019 20:21

.Critics have to go to other countries (e.g. Canada) or to the prison service “which is segregated by gender for very specific reasons”.

I find it interesting that she rules out other countries such as Canada when Canada provides an object lesson in the pitfalls of self ID and pandering to the trans lobby in all things.

Ereshkigal · 19/01/2019 20:18

No change to my fuck the fuck off Maria Miller opinion!

Nor here.

Ereshkigal · 19/01/2019 20:17

Agree with Pencils, there is no "meaningful transition" needed. The medical requirement needs to be retained, and IMO tightened up, not loosened.

Well done for meeting her though David Wine

I'd have found it hard to sit through that meeting without saying something rude.

PencilsInSpace · 19/01/2019 20:11

Whilst she didn’t say it explicitly, this indicates that she expects the rest of the criteria to remain in place (2 years in acquired gender, documentary proof, etc), so a meaningful transition would need to be evident for someone to gain a GRC.

The evidence required to show 2 years living in the acquired gender IS the documentary proof. Aside from the 2 medical reports they have to send 5-6 docs spanning the 2 year period - passport, driving licence, but also wage slips, benefit letters, gas bills etc. That's it! Any of us could do this without changing a single other thing.

Apollo440 · 19/01/2019 20:04

Firstly, thank you and well done for arranging a meeting. Secondly, do write and thank her for meeting you and list the points made here or ones you wish you'd made at the time. This lazy thinking needs correcting at every opportunity. She should be made to realise that people's concerns are substantive and not based on fear and ignorance.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 19/01/2019 19:57

I agree PencilsInSpace, I wonder what sort of risk assessment MM is imaging. Who does she think is doing it, what information do they have, and how long do they have to make the decision?

PencilsInSpace · 19/01/2019 19:55

“They fear what they don’t know”

Oh dear, she really needs to wake up to the fact that the more we learn and the more interaction we have with TRAs the less likely we are to support this agenda.

The trans movement is bleeding allies.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 19/01/2019 19:54

Regardless of GRC, if you try to “pass”, you’re a woman

god these people are so illogical aren't they?

yes, we must combat gender stereotypes

yes, a person wearing nail varnish and a dress is automatically a woman

jesus

LangCleg · 19/01/2019 19:52

Well, colour me shocked. Maria Miller is arrogant in her ignorance.

Well done for going, David.

No change to my fuck the fuck off Maria Miller opinion!