Consent is not the be-all and end-all

Somewhat OT so I apologise but my attention was snagged by this:

They have attended classes and read extensively to know how much pain and where is safe, and stop when they have had enough even if the submissive is begging for more.

Some time ago, medical cannabis research scientists commented that there is a lot of knowledge about how to develop/grow particular strains and how to manipulate components. However, the knowledge is mostly in the 'illegal' domain and they wish the formal and informal research communities could have a get together so that they could exchange information without there being any risk of criminal charges.

I wonder if there's an understanding of pain in some communities that would be rather valuable to pain researchers if it were possible to have an information exchange. I know it isn't because of ethical issues concerning human experimentation and consent issues.

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CaptainBrickbeard - that training sounds wholly relevant (sadly). I had some a problem filling in the PSHE consultation because I thought this probably needed to be addressed but I wondered about how feasible it would be to provide appropriate training.

'sadism is wrong even with consent'
The interesting thing is that many dominants are not sadists.

Even ones who engage in relatively heavy pain play, flogging, caning, etc. And I am sure that sounds completely ridiculous to you, as you are not a masochist. Some dominants are into seeing the elation their submissive gets from the pain. They have attended classes and read extensively to know how much pain and where is safe, and stop when they have had enough even if the submissive is begging for more.

But magic, in a bdsm relationship would you not need to consider what is the driving force. The sub or masochist in the relationship may be the one that is driving the behaviour for their sexual gratification.

Jakey, the training was in a huge secondary school to the entire staff. But schools are stretched in every direction and unless Ofsted announce a focus on this, it won’t stand a chance of making it onto the agenda. Cuts and relentless focus on data have squeezed everything else off the table.

@lemonlife not denying it can be consensual but could it become a convenient excuse for some.

@CaptainBrickbeard that's horrendous. Will this training get through to schools?

OR is it a convenient way for men to use as an excuse when really they are just a violent bastard and the woman may not have even been into it at all?!

I don't think you can deny that it is possible to practice consensual fulfilling bdsm within a relationship. Women have fantasies about control just as men do.

What I don't get is why "aggressive" porn has become the norm- is it the people controlling the production of porn making it so? Or is that just the demand?

It's incredibly depressing.

That case was a classic example of what is wrong with the justice system. They found him guilty of manslaughter but chose not to pursue a murder charge as they couldn’t prove there was intent to kill. If she is dead at your hands with over 40 injuries, including bleach poured on her face and left to die at the bottom of the stairs before calling an ambulance - yes there was intent to kill and it makes a mockery out of the system to even suggest otherwise.
That is not BDSM. A key point within it is trust and control on both sides, and I disagree with the OP as I think consent is what matters.
This woman may well have consented to some painful acts, but does that mean she automatically consented to the bleach? To being left to die? No it does not. You can consent to sex, and change your mind, or not want anything other than that and if you’re wishes are not listened to then it is assault and/or abuse.
We don’t need to be ‘kink shaming’ we need to be ‘violent man’ and ‘fucked up justice system’ shaming.

I work with teenagers. I’ve had a lot of safeguarding over the years and when I had yet another session of safeguarding ‘refresher’ training last week, I rolled my eyes and thought what a waste of time, I know it all.

It wasn’t more of the same if already heard. It was a crystallisation of this thread and the room was plunged into a sickened, tearful silence as the trainer told us in simple, straightforward terms what pornography is doing to children now and how it is not being combated by parents or schools.

The majority of teenage girls now expect violence the first time they have sex.

Think back to being a young teenage girl and what your fears, anxieties and curiosities were about sex. Imagine if you, and the boys around you, understood sex to be what is shown in porn.

Because porn is where children are getting their first impressions, beliefs and understanding of sex.

Who on earth thinks that can be a good thing? Male on female violence as an intrinsic part of sex from the very first time. That’s where this has led us.

Damn right we should ‘kink shame’ misogynistic sexual sadists. They have poisoned the well of developing sexuality for a generation.

@SonicVersusGynaephobia @Earlywalker but isn't that the problem? Where is the line? And if a woman enters into a BDSM relationship and suffers because of it she is deemed to have consented to "rough sex" and her sex life is fair game to the court as in the Broadhurst case, OR is it a convenient way for men to use as an excuse when really they are just a violent bastard and the woman may not have even been into it at all?!

I have a friend who has recently entered a BDSM relationship. She claims she's in control but has shown me pictures of her black and blue after a flogging, I find it incredibly disturbing and worry for her safety.

It's the men who kill them that are "pinning that in with BDSM". They say it was consensual rough sex. You say it's male violence. Where do you want to draw the line between the two?

Rough sex doesn’t kill those woman, Male violence does.
To pin that in with BDSM is minimilisation of the abuse they’ve suffered.

I don’t know where this idea has stemmed from that the woman are always the vulrenable ones.

How many men have died of "rough sex" because of the woman's extreme violence?

That poor woman! I know people that got more than that on drugs offences the sentencing is ridiculous. I don’t think leaving someone at the bottom of the stairs to die is what BDSM is about though.
Sub/Dom is not strictly woman/man though, I don’t know where this idea has stemmed from that the woman are always the vulrenable ones. Female dominatrix’s have always been more popular.
There were lots of study’s online, all the ones I read same the same things about the high during BDSM being similar to a runners high or when you eat hot chilli in food. www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.medicaldaily.com/sm-may-be-new-yoga-bdsm-causes-blood-flow-brain-alter-state-consciousness-269863%3famp=1

Not sure if this case has been mentioned but when it does all go wrong there is no justice for the woman anyway...

Millionaire jailed for girlfriend's 'rough sex' death www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-46591150

Was wondering that too. Will investigate.

Who else is into designing a study?
I imagine there is no shortage of consenting subjects.
For longitudinal studies.

In the US we can just sneak it past the shutdown

Seriously any major pain research is related to pharma interests.
Keep me posted Kismet

Has anyone looked into the neuroscience of BDSM?

What about gay/lesbian BDSM?

Everyone is talking here about the male/female dynamics. Are the same power/control issues at play? And is it gendered?

I remember when I was learning about rad feminism, (pre internet) I looked to the lesbian press"( newsletters, magazines and books) to inform my thinking. There was and is a culture of this between women.

I didn't pay much attention to the male gay BDSM world, but it certainly has been visible. influencing fashion, etc.

What do you think?

Doesn't "Vanilla" sound rather racist?

I'm going to jump in before I have read the entire thread to thank earlywalker for your input.
I have never been involved with BDSM and I think this is a feminist issue which I've never given much critical thought, aside from the PORN and escalation and coercive aspects
I am listening

amazed by how badly some women I have dated have asked to be treated (sexually), particularly when they are younger
I think there might be something in your hypothesis. paradoxically maybe an unconscious way of excercising some control in the dynamic and an excercise in controlling their own innate fear of us
It's a similar idea to mine from earlier, that it's a way of trying to exist within some awful boundaries (in the case of the young women you slept with, perhaps some of those boundaries were self imposed).
Does being subby or slutty or overeager to please provide the woman in question with an alter ego to project sexual feelings onto? A disassociated man-pleaser, because having sex as an avatar makes her less emotionally vulnerable?
In the absence of real intimacy, being able to make a man's sexual dreams come true, and to see his appreciation, is probably the next closest thing. That's power at least.
Real intimacy is pretty scary, and the disposable nature of many relationships doesn't help it flourish.
So she gets control from the negotiated boundaries, feels respected when he respects them, feels powerful when she succeeds in pleasing him, and possibly fetishises her own body once disassociated from it.
I guess (and I know very little about this so it's a guess) it might the the reason for inappropriate and unsafe sexual behaviour in girls and women who have suffered sexual abuse.
It sounds pretty crap to me.

FFS when we’re seriously debating whether or not men have the right, if women like it, to engage in what American soldiers did to Iraqis and Afghanis at abu-Graib and Bagram, for which both Bush and Cheney are wanted in The Hague -- the conversation around consent and around kink has become utterly bankrupt.

Quite. It astounds me that there are people who will argue that this is fine. Mind, only a few days back, I saw a bunch of guys I know discussing that case of the teen with a colostomy bag with a 'damn this is going to make people demonize anal sex and women might be more unlikely to say yes to it' angle

I fear the problem with women fetishising themselves as either objects or subordinates comes from the tacit understanding that we men can be very violent. Women love us and desire us, and actually being a sub is paradoxically maybe an unconscious way of excercising some control in the dynamic and an excercise in controlling their own innate fear of us.

Like saying “abuse me, but only this much,” as long as the guy doesn’t cross that line she can think “at least he respects and loves me enough to not really unleash on me”. Also maybe they also see it as way of acting as a release valve for potential violence.

I’m a man and a pretty damn assertive one, but I am saddened and amazed by how badly some women I have dated have asked to be treated (sexually), particularly when they are younger. I’m getting quite saddened by all this, and wish it was different. :(

MagicMix just to add, I wasn't implying you were porn-sick yourself