Did anyone watch Loose Women today?

And yes, it's about choice.

I'm not sure having your clothes changed and your own faeces washed off you, would be constituted being waited on hand and foot, to be honest.

I think there would be an outcry from men if it were mandated that all intimate care should be provided by a same sex HCP.

To be fair, I think that would 80% be because they like being waited on hand and foot by a woman and not because they're scared of a man touching them up.

This is what I love about this board. The thread started with a discussion about Loose Women, and now we (predominantly women) are discussing men's need for privacy and respect within a nursing context. It's a generous, even handed discussion, looking at people as individuals. I must admit I'd never considered a man might not want a female HCP.

I can't ever imagine the hate filled discussions where we're all referred to as t**fs moving along in this way.

I don't know. The ward that I nursed on were by far elderly men. Most of those were uncomfortable being looked after by female staff and they would often say things but apologetically, as though they thought we would be offended by it.

I'm not talking about the fear of being assaulted either but just embarrassment.

Maybe it's assumed that men are used to being cared for by women (their mothers). Is it a subconscious feeling then that female care givers are "the norm" because it links back to childhood? Never thought it through that far tbh.

You are right though. Where possible, all patients should be given choice, without value judgements.

I know you weren’t calling for all care to be sex specific and I agree, if a man requested to be attended by a man then they should have the request honoured wherever possible, but I think there are differences (or actually similarities) in how the sexes want intimate care to be given.

Except that many men wouldn’t want to have intimate care done by another male because of unconscious (or conscious) homophobia.

I know several men who have requested female HPC’s because it would “be weird” to have a man attending to them.

Also men know that men sexually assault at higher rates than women, even if they are unwilling to verbally acknowledge it, and many do not want to put themselves in that vulnerable position.

I think there would be an outcry from men if it were mandated that all intimate care should be provided by a same sex HCP.

And if wishes were horses beggars would ride.

We are where we are. I just think it needs acknowledging that men can be just as uncomfortable receiving care from a female nurse as woman can from a male nurse. It might have changed now but at the very least I think men should be asked first and a male nurse provided where available.

Whereas if nursing was seen as a gender neutral job, and paid a decent wage, it wouldn't be such an issue would it? Because there would be more male nurses prepared to work with men.

TootTootPeanutButter

I agree, the shortage of male nurses/carers does make this a difficulty to solve.

I just noticed while I was a nurse that no one ever considered whether a man was comfortable with being cared for by female staff. It was just never a consideration and yet it was always at the forefront when women were cared for by a male nurse or doctor. Male drs were always chaperoned when examining female patients and male nurses never gave intimate care to female patients. Yet with male patients the possibility that they might feel just as embarrassed or uncomfortable was never considered.

BusyBarbara. Surely you can think of some reasons why the sex of the person administering medical or personal care matters very much to some individuals too? It might not be an issue for you, but it certainly is for many, many women and it's essential that it is respected.

I'm not looking at their gender either. I can't see it if indeed it exists, but I can see their sex.

You really can't think of any reasons why women as a class have more reason to be concerned than men about the sex of the person providing medical treatment or personal care? That said there are some men for whom this is an issue too, and that should be respected, and I'd say that a lot of men, possibly most, would not feel comfortable being on mixed sex wards.

I don't think the problem is men are getting washed by women, it's more that for some reason we as a gender are hypersensitive to these issues. If a nurse is a man or woman doesn't matter to me, they are a professional, and they can wash me if they are a "nurse" or a "doctor", I am not looking at their gender.

Dignity is important for everyone. Men should ideally have the choice too. An very elderly male relative was in a ward for a heart problem last year and he was very anxious about being on a mixed ward and though dignity was his main concern he was also worried about making women feel uncomfortable or afraid too.

I absolutely agree Weetabixand Shreddies. Dignity is so important for men too. The only spanner in the works is that there are far more female carers and nurses than there are men. The care sector badly needs more male careers for this reason and others. It's a real problem but I find that so many men wouldn't consider it for a minute.

KitsandCaboodles

Actually I think your post highlights the fact that most men, particularly elderly men, are just expected to put up with female nurses and carers in a way that most women are not expected to have male nurses and carers. It would be shocking if a woman were bed bathed or had their catheter changed or the bottom wiped by an unchaperoned male nurse or carer yet this happens every day, hundreds of times over to men in hospital and at home.

Women and men should both have the same respect given when it comes to intimate care being given by someone of the opposite sex.

All women have equal rights to have an opinion though even if it is different from others.

I guess when you construct an identity as opposed to having an identity it's always potentially a house of cards. When I see or hear some sexist crap being spouted I have a range of reactions. But it never makes me question my feelings around my gender or biological sex. I never want to fire bomb someone's house, or do them physical harm, as a result.

The lack of empathy and care would be staggering if it didn't completely fit with their profile of narcissism with no boundaries.

Absolutely.

I saw that section of LW yesterday. I don't think Stacey Solomon had any deep understanding of the issue at all. She's usually very giggly and girly, but seemed to be adopting a serious face, to tell off her older colleagues on the panel for not being nice to men (although of course they're really women). It was woke in action. Shameful.

The others were squirming with their "oh it's so hard", "maybe there just isn't a solution that suits everyone" narrative. I was annoyed that they just couldn't say what they obviously felt without trying to be so NICE - but to men of course, not to women.

I think the TRAs do hate older women particularly. Their image of a woman to copy in terms of dress, hair, make up, etc is generally a pornified glossy version of femaleness. An older woman, and especially one who isn't on board with the mainly youthful woke nonsense spouted by the likes of Stacey Solomon, is not, I'm sure, their idea of "living as a woman."

When they say they were born in the wrong body I'm sure they're thinking the body should have been more like Stacey, less like Gloria.

Years ago when I spent some time working in care I had the very occasional elderly man ask me if it was possible for him to have a male carer as he felt that his dignify and comfort were better protected by being cared for by a man instead of a young woman. At the time I wasn't at all offended, completely understood his feelings and merely said that I'd speak to my manager and try to arrange that for him. Now, reading the reaction towards Gloria sharing her opinions I realise just how wrong I was and that really I should have viciously berated those men, accused them of being a woman hater and told them that they deserved to die in a fire for the crimes of being old and daring to have an opinion. I'm so grateful to the TRAs and their supporters for showing me the true path.

When I was hospitalized a couple of years ago (first time in my 40 odd years apart from maternity wards), there was one old lady with dementia who would strip off all the time and another who used to try and get into bed with me. Both were very vulnerable and the rest of the ward were very protective of them both as, although the 8 bed bay we were in was female, the ward itself was mixed.

There were several times when male patients wandered round to look for a nurse (or so they said).

Women in a vulnerable state should have the right to be free from m male bodied individuals and it shouldn’t need to be justified.

Funny how the feelings of 4 elderly women being sexually harassed / frightened and intimidated on a hospital ward don't even appear on the radar of trans activists (or Stacey S). The lack of empathy and care would be staggering if it didn't completely fit with their profile of narcissism with no boundaries.
And even other commentators completely lose the ability to remember who is the victim in the face of TRA intimidation.

Apparently, dementia can bring out tendencies that a more rational mind was able to contain :(.

Christ, you'd think you'd be safe from sex pests when you'r 80, wouldn't you?