The Times:The looming Olympic controversy: who can compete as a woman?

twitter.com/elleffvon/status/1086332118307753984

EJennings Glinner is retweeting your perfect sentence! Can anyone who is on Twitter correct the attribution? (I'm not).

Testosterone is a red herring. At the moment I think limits on testosterone for MtF is more used as a form of gate-keeping to try and ensure that it is only 'genuine' trans people who can compete as women. As this article shows, the rules are more concerned about inclusion than fairness.

Of course, TRAs like McKinnon can't stand any form of gatekeeping so they will try and ensure that there are no barriers to men competing as women.

Nothing illustrates more vividly the subordination of women than men deciding who can be one

This is brilliant. Please let's get it plastered all over the internet.

Medical exemptions on banned substances have to be applied for in advance on a case by case basis and are decided by the individual sports international ruling body, which brings us back to the current state of affairs where it’s all rather arbitrary and ad hoc and needs proper clarification.

I don’t think testosterone for transmasculine sportspeople could really be adequately justified at an international level, especially with statements like Theresa May’s ‘Trans is not an illness’ and the current WPATH policy that you don’t need gender dysphoria to be trans and informed consent is enough for hormone prescriptions.

We’d be heading back to the bad old days of doping women for competitive advantage, only now they would be able to just hide in plain sight, by declaring a trans identity. That’s not going to stand up to scrutiny.

Hi Nbartist

Nice to have you here

amid concerns that men who transition to become women could receive an unfair advantage in female sport

What about those that don't transition, and are entering and winning trophies and money competing against women..?

They're ignoring the huge elephant in the room.

I almost wish they'd sat back a bit longer on this nonsense. So we'd have sports featuring 90% self-id athletes and the whole world could see for themselves the utter travesty that this is. The more in the public eye the better

Betty, Grinitch & Boom I agree with you on that, thank you for the opinions. I thought that would be the majority opinion and it's another one that I agree with. Either there needs to be a separate category for trans men or, like me, they'll just have to accept that we don't have a place in sports and that it's more than okay to pursue physical fitness and sports outside of a competitive setting and that alternative careers can be made in that field without raising issues.

And Thingybob, I'll keep that in mind! I might need to build up the courage and I can only speak for myself as the non-binary experience is so subjective, but I'm thinking I'll give it a go in future!

Right but hasn't the person in Texas stated they would prefer to compete against males? Not at all the same thing as R McKinnon glorying in champion status over females.

Banned substances are allowed if they are treating a medical condition - which GIS is considered to be. So I don't think it would stop transmen from competing, which is what happened in Texas.

I just don’t understand why a transwoman would want to compete. I do feel sorry for them if it’s a sport they’re passionate about but it’s an unavoidable sacrifice with transition and I just don’t see how there can be any way around it.
A trans Olympics could work well, but I don’t think anyone could truly think including transwoman in woman’s sports could work for anyone. If the TW wins, will even she herself feel it is a true win? I’m not sure.

nbartist It's nice to see you contribute here.

If at any time you want to get any more involved may I suggest you start a thread on being non-binary. The whole NB thing is something us women struggle to understand so if there is anything to understand I would welcome someone explaining it.

OT but BorneBackCeaselessly ohhhhh I love, love, love Fitzgerald!

want a tshirt with this on it. A crude mock up of what this might look like

I must be far more cynical than you, I think they know damn well it’s not fair - they just don’t care/or don’t dare to prioritise female people!

I think you're right.

Synthetic Testosterone is a banned substance anyway

Exactly. The hormone therapy involved in medical transition would be equivalent to doping. So IMO female sportspeople could wear masculine clothes, have mastectomy/phalloplasty if desired, but not take testosterone if they wanted to compete against other females.

I'm not keen on the biological sex only classification as that will pit transmen with who are taking testosterone against women who aren't taking it. While there are a few sports where women's biology might not be a disadvantage the vast majority of sports are designed around male ideals of physical prowess and male bodies or women's bodies that get male hormones etc. are at an unreasonable advantage over women's bodies that are not aping men.

If that was the case, there wouldn't even be a debate about it

I must be far more cynical than you, I think they know damn well it’s not fair - they just don’t care/or don’t dare to prioritise female people!

Synthetic Testosterone is a banned substance anyway so transmaculine competitors would have to delay starting hormones until after retirement (but mastectomy/social transition could still take place).

It’s a matter of choosing ones priorities.

There are still lots of opportunity to get involved in sporting activities that are mixed sex or non-competitive, so don’t rule it out of your life entirely nbartist - unless you want to! I find it s good for my mental health (even though I’m a bit crap at it).

(Sorry, just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean my personal viewpoint on this in any way means trans people in sports is not an issue, as I stated before I think trans people should either compete in their natal sex category or, in a perfect world, their own category. I just realised it could come across like I was saying that because it's not a problem for me it shouldn't be a problem at all and I wanted to make sure I clarified that the last paragraph was just my personal stance on sports for myself)

Nothing illustrates more vividly the subordination of women than men deciding who can be one

That's it isn't it. That's the last word on all this.

The sports issue is where the division is most clear - I struggle to believe that anyone remotely rational can declare it fair for TW to compete in the female category.

If that was the case, there wouldn't even be a debate about it.

There are enough male transpeople and their supporters who are pushing to compete against women to make it an issue. And the fact that it isn't dismissed immediately shows that it is being taken seriously and considered a possibility by authorities.

Oh, I just remembered I do have a question to ask the people on this thread as well, because I'm not sure where I stand on the reverse of this and I don't know any statistics or research on it or if anyone has seen anything on the subject. Should trans men be competing in the women's category because it's their natal sex, or would testosterone treatment mean that they would have an unfair advantage? I imagine this could cause quite an issue- I don't know what the best solution to this would be besides a separate category entirely, which at this point isn't warranted. For reference, I'm non-binary and not taking or planning on taking any hormone therapy for various reasons, and none of my friends who are on hormone therapy are involved in sports enough to gauge any potential advantage.

Personally I accept that I'm not going to be a sportsperson because I'm trans. Not that I was into sports before I figured out my gender identity either, but when I mentioned logical boundaries that's one of mine. As a trans person, I don't think there's a place for me in sports and that's just one of the consequences of being trans. In a perfect world there would be sports categories for trans people, so that trans women and trans men who have undertaken hormone treatment could compete on a completely even ground, but as that's not the case and I don't think it's something worth setting up considering that not enough trans people would want to compete, the lack of competitive sports is just something I'm okay with.

nbartist
Thanks for your input, it seems that you fully understand it is unfair to women and girls competing.

A podium place that is taken by a trans is a podium place taken from a genuine female competitor.

Trans can have a separate category.
They can have their pronouns and they will get respect.

Welcome nbartist - can we interest you in some ?

The sports issue is where the division is most clear - I struggle to believe that anyone remotely rational can declare it fair for TW to compete in the female category.

Those in favour (such as R. Mckinnon) appear to be on a narcissistic power trip - it’s just a convenient way to act like a shit to women (and seemingly get away with it).

Physical activity is great for everyone of all levels and being trans certainly shouldn’t be a basis for missing out, but If a person has ambitions to compete, then it’s much like having ambitions for biological parenthood - some aspects of transition will need to be put on hold while working at achieving those goals.

We all have to make compromises and pick priorities - no one gets to do everything. Every path taken leaves several others untraveled.