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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Major (positive) change to EA/trans advice

89 replies

Oldstyle · 29/12/2018 20:20

It appears that there's been a change in the official advice given to organisations about how to resolve single-sex vs transwomen inclusion issues. In favour of women's rights to single sex provision. Needs to be shouted about / shared. And failures in compliance need to be challenged.
twitter.com/2010equality/status/1079039059211759623?s=21&fbclid=IwAR0VdGYXiBe_7fw4dJuPQyHBI5gZY4x2WdWdP3nE2PG_ZOH5plyTLuS-x90

OP posts:
LangCleg · 30/12/2018 09:22

We did discuss most of this when the new guidance originally came out. Yes, there were some corrections to the most egregious misinterpretations of EqA by EHRC. But loads still remain.

In particular, the case by case insertion to exemptions for GRC holders that was lobbied for by trans groups. Case by case should be clarified to mean service provider by service provider and not trans person by trans person. That clarification would actually make a meaningful difference to third sector women's orgs such as refuges and small businesses (to stop the #waxmyballs stuff currently going on in Canada).

ChattyLion · 30/12/2018 09:03

Welcoming any clarity on this and the principle sounds great. IANAL but if we female toilet users (or the single-sex service provider or employer organising the single-sex staff toilets or whoever it is) can't legally ask to see a GR certificate.. then how does this principle translate into moving us forward in real life where male born people who ID as women can use the Ladies unchallengeably- because nobody knows who has a GRC and who doesn’t ?

Not trying to be a wanker about this- I really want to see the law made foolproof to interpret around this. Would it not be better to campaign for GRA repeal now the problems it was brought in to solve have been solved?

Neurotrash · 30/12/2018 08:57

This is most important then in the context of schools and organisations for children because children cannot have a GRC.

I've always thought this.

Datun · 30/12/2018 08:45

Placemarking

JackyHolyoake · 30/12/2018 07:20

gcscience Please be assured that there is no way I am leaving anything to the government and do not believe everything is "hunky dory".Smile

JackyHolyoake · 30/12/2018 07:12

*Laundry" Schools also have this law:

See Regulation 4:: www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1943/regulation/4/made

LaundryLaundryLaundry · 30/12/2018 07:05

This is most important then in the context of schools and organisations for children because children cannot have a GRC. Is that right? Does it then follow that organisations who don't provide/enforce sex-specific spaces are in breach of the EA? For example, say there's a group of girls uncomfortable with a male changing in their spaces. They complain and are offered an alternative space. Would this give them the right to recourse under the EA?

Oldstyle · 30/12/2018 02:15

Thanks for the thread Feministme. I realise there are a ton of ifs/buts/maybes/howevers but it did cheer me up to discover that the EHRC was attempting to follow the original principle of the law rather than just rolling over and waiting for the TRAs to tickle its tummy. What can we do to extend this clarity do you think?

OP posts:
gcscience · 30/12/2018 02:11

What Bubonic said

BubonicTheHedgehag · 30/12/2018 02:07

Basically, women need the repeal of the Gender Recognition Act, because it facilitates male delusions to the detriment of women's reality.

We women also need a simultaneous strengthening of sex-based divisions, where it comes to women's single-sex spaces. Female bodies only, female born. No men. No male bodies.

Men and women should be free to identify and dress and present however they wish.

But women are women. Men are not women. And women can see you men, and hear you, and smell you.

theOtherPamAyres · 30/12/2018 01:51

The EHRC has given its opinion. Julian Norman and Rosa Freedman have both given an opinion.

Case law is sparse and not always relevant. A judge may interpret the law differently.

The EHRC interpets the law to say that there can be exclusions - but only in exceptional cases. They recommend looking at each case on its merits and individual circumstances - but where is the source of that opinion? Are they right? Or is it another interpretation?

Feministme · 30/12/2018 01:29

Hi - - it's my twitter thread (screenshot of notification view attached Grin as secret handshake). I'm a regular here under a different name.

Its not an official account but my aim is to link to official and expert sources to clarify the EA2010, which is often misunderstood... And to highlight how inconsistent (and for so long wrong) the EHRC guidance has been.

You are right (whoever said it), the thread agrees with and repeats what Rosa Freedman and Julian Norman have already pointed out.

The"new" thing is the EHRC statement from July 30 www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-work/news/our-statement-sex-and-gender-reassignment-legal-protections-and-language which didn't get much attention at the time (and wasnt promoted at all). It's a major about-face and shows the previous guidance was wrong (I think).

Not only does it confirm Rosa and Julia's point about sex and "gender reassignment" being treated as separate and show that "transwomen are (generally) men" is a statement of the law.... The wording is a big shift in the EHRC guidance from saying any transwomen can only be excluded from women's spaces on a case by case basis (which means practically impossible) to transwomen without a GRC are automatically excluded (and its nothing to do w them being trans it's because they are men), and transwomen who've changed their birth certificate via GRC can be excluded (often on a case by case basis).

In practice I think if there is a legitimate aim to keep penises out of women's intimate spaces, but you can't ask if someone has a penis, then that rules out case by case assessment so orgs should be able to adopt generalised approaches "women's changing room for adult human females"
Smile and have third spaces for people who don't want to go in to single sex spaces for their sex.

Major (positive) change to EA/trans advice
gcscience · 30/12/2018 01:11

You seem to believe we can rely on the government for this, yet MPs -one or two excepted - are too scared and say TWAdefoW

gcscience · 30/12/2018 01:09

They have no intention of doing so. Didn't they open the GRA consultation by saying TWAW?

Why are you acting like everything is hunky dory? But still acting all GC?
I find your stance contradictory JackyH. Xmas Confused

JackyHolyoake · 30/12/2018 00:14

It legalises a deceit .. yes. At the time [2003] it was stressed that this deceit only applied to circa 5000 individuals and was the considered optimum response to dealing with the issue of "same-sex marriage" and aspects of statutory pension issues.

[Now that subsequent law provides for same-sex marriage and for th equalisation of pension ages it could be said that the purpose of the GRA 2004 is defunct and that this deceitful law could be repealed.]

See the Hansard Reports:

House of Lords: api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/2004/feb/03/gender-recognition-bill-hl

House of Commons: api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/2004/feb/23/gender-recognition-bill

gcscience · 29/12/2018 23:54

Legal Fiction

It may be fiction, but it's still legal isn't it!

gcscience · 29/12/2018 23:52

What Bubonic said

JackyHolyoake · 29/12/2018 23:51

Again, see also section 20 "Gender-specific offences" [if ever a section exposed what a mess is the GRA 2004 this may be it when it comes to replacing the term 'sex' [biological] with 'gender' [socially imposed behaviours]]

Gender-specific offences: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/20

[This law was obviously written by men!]

gcscience · 29/12/2018 23:50

The law is quite clear. Equality Act 2010 Section 7 states that "gender reassignment" refers only to "transsexuals" [ie those with a GRC in accordance with the GRA 2004]

Yes and all and sundry may get one soon.

BubonicTheHedgehag · 29/12/2018 23:47

It's an interesting read. But.

But given all this, the retention of the Gender Recognition Act and the granting of Gender Recognition Certificates, remain problematic.

As SpartacusAutisticusAHF said upthread:
As long as men can become 'legally female' sex as a protected characteristic does not protect women and girls.

And as AspieAndProud said upthread:
But then ‘the law says a transwoman who hasn't gone through the GRC process is a man.’
That implies a man who has gone through the GRC process is a woman, otherwise why mention the GRC process at all?

And the quote from the official account:
"a trans woman with a GRC would be treated as female."

And Qcng:
'A man/transwoman with a GRC should be treated as their preferred gender BUT exemptions apply so they can still be excluded.
Which we all knew anyway. BUT now the EHRC formally recognise this where before it was all a bit obscure.

And MsBeaujangles:
In terms of the GRC distinction, as a pp has stated, seeing as it is illegal to ask for a GRC, how on earth can appropriate access be monitored/checked upon.? Whilst I don't buy the argument that it is impossible to 'police' access (after all, people drive cars everyday without proving they have passed their test/have tax, insurance and an MOT) if people cannot be asked to prove their sex, any attempts to protect sex based rights are meaningless.

We're still dealing in interpretations - i.e. opinions - rather than any definite ruling that female single-sex spaces and roles will remain dedicated to and for women and girls - biological, born women and girls, and only women and girls; and no persons born with male biology allowed, because sex matters.

Once again, the devil is in the detail, and possible loopholes, such as these.

gcscience · 29/12/2018 23:47

gcscience if getting a GRC becomes simple self ID then surely it will mean hee-haw on whether a man has become a woman or what 'effort' a TW has put into transitioning.

Haven't you come across ladydick?

JackyHolyoake · 29/12/2018 23:46

See also GRA 2004 section 19 Sport

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/19

JackyHolyoake · 29/12/2018 23:45

Note also that the GRA 2004 acknowledges it creates a Legal Fiction via sections [ie; GRA 2004 clearly acknowledges that no human can ever change sex]:

12 Parenthood: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/12

15 Succession: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/15

16 peerages: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/16

GimmeGimmeHellYeah · 29/12/2018 23:39

Why is it just about transwomen, and no mention of transmen?

JackyHolyoake · 29/12/2018 23:35

The law is quite clear. Equality Act 2010 Section 7 states that "gender reassignment" refers only to "transsexuals" [ie those with a GRC in accordance with the GRA 2004]

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7

"Transgender" / "non-binary" has zero legal meaning.
[As does the nebulous concept of "gender identity".]

The Equality Act 2010 specifically excludes GRC holders via the Exceptions .

The "Trans Lobby" has been misrepresenting the law in one way or another.