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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.

238 replies

Cismyfatarse1 · 29/12/2018 19:34

Help!

DS who is ridiculously clever, 18 and knows everything has been, along with DD (16) (Alsoclever but prepared to admit to not knowing everything) arguing amicably with me on and off all day.

Both of them were arguing that women should be free to choose to be prostitutes / porn stars / rent out their wombs.

I disagreed vehemently because we can't have laws that allow exploitation of the most vulnerable. Plus, these (particularly the first two) make women commodities for men.

Any clear arguments I can use? Links? Sources.

DS - who is gay - didn't see that if prostitution was so desirable a job, then men would do it. He also didn't see that consent is not really consent if you are vulnerable or being groomed / exploited. His life has been quite comfy. DD - no real life experience, didn't get that, as women, we are often seen as vessels for carrying / entering and that a penis in your mouth / cunt / bum is very different from just being physically close with someone who you don't fancy.

Both of them insisted that porn is watched by lots of women and that porn star is a desirable job for some and that porn stars are safe.

I gave it my all but really do want them to SEE!! Their generation, they argue, is not uptight about sex so selling it is no big deal.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
MargueritaPink · 30/12/2018 00:09

On prostitution tell them to find out what is happening in Leeds. Check out the many print and documentary sources of information about what is happening in Germany.

I saved the speech below because it is so impressive.

Verbatim speech by Cllr Sarah Field from a recent debate in Leeds full council:

Thank you Lord Mayor.
I’ll get straight to the point: buying women and children for sex is unacceptable and we need criminal sanctions that stop men from doing it

I note that in her amendment Cllr Coupar refers to “sex workers”. This is a necessary fiction to normalise the legalisation of prostitution, normalise it as just another consumer activity and normalise the position of men as merely clients. It obfuscates, rather than highlights, the harm of prostitution and completely ignores the executors of that harm.

This language of ‘sex work’ assumes that there are divisions between various forms of prostitution; such as between child and adult and between forced and so–called free. When in fact all these facets are contingent upon and encompass one another. Enormous sums of money are made from the monstrous trade in women’s and children’s bodies, leading inevitably to sex trafficking.

When we refer to sex work we are subscribing to a notion that it is ordinary work based on a bizarre notion of equality of opportunity, when in reality the VAST majority of prostitution does not fit this picture in any way whatsoever.

It’s not sex work. This euphemistic and sanitised language appeases the conscience of those who fail to acknowledge that prostitution damages women and children, it can NEVER be made safe and it fundamentally thwarts women’s rights to equality with men and their liberation, as a class, from systematic oppression.

To anyone who is happy to call transactional sex legitimate work, I’d ask if they’d be happy if it was the career choice of their daughters, wives, mothers and sisters? And would they be happy to see “sex work” careers advice in schools?

To quote feminist author Julie Bindel: “Any government that allows the decriminalisation of pimping and sex-buying sends a message to its citizens that women are vessels for male sexual consumption. If prostitution is “sex work”, then by its own logic, rape is merely theft. The inside of a woman’s body should never be viewed as a workplace.”^

It seems to have become a widely accepted axiom that prostitution can never be eliminated. Have we really set such a low bar?

When five prostituted women in Ipswich were murdered in 2006, what did Ipswich council do? It completely eradicated prostitution from its streets.

Ipswich did this through serious investment and multi-agency dedication to the Nordic Model.

I am calling on this council to learn from Ipswich.Visit them and work with them and their police force. I am calling for this council to abolish the shocking and scandalous “managed zone” and commit to the Nordic model, which seeks the following:

  • The decriminalisation of those who areprostituted
  • High-quality services and ring-fenced funding for those in prostitution
  • Buying sex to be made a criminal offence
  • Procuring, pimping and sex trafficking legislation to bestrengthened and the policing of these crimes to be fully resourced and prioritised
  • A widespread holistic approach of public information campaigns, education programmes in schools and training for the police

Leeds has become a city where women cannot even meet to discuss changes to government legislation, but where men are openly raping women, soliciting for sex with children and offering to buy babies.

Our city has become a notorious illustration of misogyny and this scourge must be stopped immediately.

Our women deserve better, our children deserve better, our communities deserve better and the only way forward is to end this sanctioning of sexual violence that should be morally despised.

In memory of Tania Nicol, Gemma Adams, Anneli Alderton, Annette Nichols, Paula Clennell and Daria Pionko

Oh and roll around the floor laughing at the ridiculous idea that their generation is so cool and not uptight about sex unlike any previous generation.

Being anti-prostitution and and anti- porn is not being anti- sex. Quite the contrary. Sex should be a mutually consented and mutually enjoyable activity between consenting adults. I don't care whether it is a monogamous couple of 20 years standing or 2 strangers out on the pull who got lucky. I don't even care if it is more than 2 as long as there is mutuality and consideration and respect for one's partner (s)

Porn and prostitution don't care about mutuality and respect. Porn and prostitution only work if sex is treated as something dirty and illicit. Porn and prostitution push the puritanical idea that sex is dirty.There is nothing open minded or cool about thinking of sex in that way.

BlindYeo · 30/12/2018 00:09

Quite littl.

OP, perhaps tell them you have rethought it and agree with them. Suggest that next time they need some cash there's always plenty waiting to be made down on the local dodgy corner and if it's no worse than washing dishes they should be fine about it.

littlbrowndog · 30/12/2018 00:00

I do blind
If it’s that a good a job why are all our kids not doing it
Yey let the lower classes suck the dicks cos fuck our clever kids deserve more than that don’t they ?

BlindYeo · 29/12/2018 23:55

I think littl has it in a nutshell.

And that is why, ultimately, people who have true choice choose not to prostitute themselves. It's nearly always people who lack choice who do it.

littlbrowndog · 29/12/2018 23:54

Middle class angst ffs

littlbrowndog · 29/12/2018 23:52

No one choose to be a prostitute
No one
It’s something you get forced into or last resort
Them clever teens of urs don’t have a clue wha5 it is to,be desperate
Not one fucking clue when you have to suck off a guy for a tenner

BeUpStanding · 29/12/2018 23:50

OBJECT is a feminist group who campaign against pornography, surrogacy and prostitution. Loads of good resources on their website - look in the 5 Key Issues section
www.objectnow.org/

littlbrowndog · 29/12/2018 23:46

Cripes
Ask em
Sucking a dick for a tenner or washing som3 dishes for a tenner
Which wold they lik3 seeing as they are sellin* their bodies

DoctorTwo · 29/12/2018 23:35

Escorts

Such a pretty word

aye Rufus, it glosses over the reality.

ChattyLion · 29/12/2018 21:27

The inside of your body is not a workplace
^ ^ This

Purplewithgreenspots · 29/12/2018 21:25

I would happily wash dishes for a living. Have done so, would donso again. Prostituting my body on the other hand... nope, not the same at all.

Plus escort work vs street prositution? Sometimes better, sometimes not so nice. How about those lovely ladies in that really posh tower block in London. Do they really enjoy having sex with thirty randoms a month to pay their rent? Bet they don’t.

MagicMix · 29/12/2018 21:09

Turn it around. Apologists for these practices always always focus on the woman and her choices rather than those doing the exploiting.

For example with prostitution, ask about the actions of the punter, not the prostitute:

Should a person have the right to purchase sexual consent? Is it legitimately possible to buy consent? Do your children understand the concept of enthusiastic consent and why this is completely incompatible with financial coercion? Can a punter ever truly know that a prostitute has not been forced into this position and if they understand that this is impossible, ask them is it ever ethical to go ahead with the transaction?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 21:04

heir generation, they argue, is not uptight about sex

Sorry just seen this...im fairly positive that thats what every generation since those born in the 60's have said

RussellSprout · 29/12/2018 20:56

You can lead a horse to water but cannot make it drink.

At the end of the day, you can try to convince them of your logic any way you like, but they have the right to draw their own conclusions and form their own beliefs.

The more you try and push a certain viewpoint, the more they may resist.

All you can do is put it out there.. you cannot make them 'SEE' as you say. That makes you sound a little controlling.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 29/12/2018 20:33

The inside of your body is not a workplace and can never be made safe.

Deliriumoftheendless · 29/12/2018 20:27

I would hate to wash dishes for a living (or for housework, for that matter) but I’ve never seen a dishwasher pushed out of a moving car in their underwear in the middle of the night to avoid (I’m guessing) the person paying having to cough up their wages, so on balance no, I don’t think they’re the same by a long chalk.

GoulashSoup · 29/12/2018 20:26

I have found where I got that statistic from, just trying to find the actual source. Have found a more recent paper that finds 20%.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/tangledwebsorg.wordpress.com/2012/06/11/surrogacy-and-pre-eclampsia/amp/

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/30420169/?i=5&from=surrogacy%20risks

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 20:22

Escorts

Such a pretty word

anniehm · 29/12/2018 20:17

Look they have a point - the problem is about coercion, exploitation and it not being truly the choice of those with these "careers". There's a series on iPlayer about street prostitution in Leeds - but equally there was a documentary about young women choosing to be premium end prostitutes and web cam service providers pulling in £100k a year!

Young people are pretty astute - and actually there's plenty of male escorts these days, catering to the gay community and women.

I'm not pro anything really but just saying sex work is wrong is far too simplistic to counter a clever teenager! And as for surrogacy - it's the designer baby option of our time, Hollywood to Olympic medalists, you are wasting your breath. I object far more to surrogacy than (safe) prostitution actually because of the huge amounts of money.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 20:14

If it's work like any other, would your son, if ever unemployed, be happy for the job centre to insist on his becoming a male prostitute if it was the only job available?

Well apparently its just like washing dishes and he has experience of that Grin

Only teasing OP...it is great tha they feel they can have these sort of discussions with you. I like it when my children do the same

Mariotta · 29/12/2018 20:11

If it's work like any other, would your son, if ever unemployed, be happy for the job centre to insist on his becoming a male prostitute if it was the only job available?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 20:10

Of not if Smile

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 20:09

So thats selling his body as well? I guess his brain is part if his body

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 20:08

Both have jobs in hospitality in the holidays and were arguing that giving their time and labour to Was dishes or other menial jobs was also selling your body

Really Hmm just menial jobs?

Its just that dh uses his hands to type spreadsheets in his well paid and well respected position . Uses his body to get to sales meetings

Cismyfatarse1 · 29/12/2018 20:03

I made the point about organ donation / purchase and was told it was "different" and rightly illegal. Both have jobs in hospitality in the holidays and were arguing that giving their time and labour to Was dishes or other menial jobs was also selling your body.

I laughed. A lot. Apparently miners had a really terrible job. I pointed out those jobs were well paid and had status, unlike prostitution.

OP posts: