Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.

And the majority are not stripping 'for other men' they are stripping for money. It's an important distinction. Money is the motivation. Ask them to strip for free and see where it gets you.

I have sympathy for some men who feel a prostitute or a stripper is their only outlet - I get it. I don't agree with it though.
I have no sympathy for men who just see it as a transaction and woman's body is a commodity.

I could never pay a woman for sex, because deep down I might not be Mr Handsome, but I'd still want a woman to actually want me. Some people believe they can have great sex without emotion, but for me, I only ever want both, because great sex WITH emotion still trumps all.

I don't 'blame' all men who use prostitutes or porn - because I don't think all men are bad people. I think some are naive, some are misguided and some really are arseholes. But I do believe pornography and prostitution ultimately devalue people and predominantly it's women who suffer the most as a result.

My opposition to prostitution is not necessarily based on gender inequality. Prostitution is degrading and debasing. It is treating people as objects to be used for the sexual gratification of the buyer.

The buyers will of course in the vast majority of cases be men so actually even there gender plays a significant part.

The fact that men can be treated as a sexual object too does not undermine the fact women can be.
Correct, but if sex work only happens because of gender inequality, or because women are viewed by society as sex objects, then male sex workers and strippers would not exist. The fact that male sex workers exist completely invalidates the "gender inequality" theory.

I mean seriously, whilst posters on here are primarily focussing on women we do understand that men can and are exploited by the "sex industry" too. Likely they entered into it as vulnerable children.

And yes , the female sex tourists going to Gambia are scum too.

The problem with the "Women are sexual objects" argument is that it falls apart once you remember that there are plenty of men who strip for other men.

No it doesn't.
The fact that men can be treated as a sexual object too does not undermine the fact women can be.
There are plenty of exploited rentboys in the world. Plenty of men who need money and will strip to get it. And yes, there might be some who just enjoy it, but that takes nothing away from the others.

The problem with the "Women are sexual objects" argument is that it falls apart once you remember that there are plenty of men who strip for other men

I will have to take your word on the number of male strippers but even if it is correct it does not remotely negate the argument. Do you really think that because some men are also sexually exploited that (a) that makes the sexual exploitation of women ok or (b) I and the original poster don't care about the sexual exploitation of men.

legendary oh you’re a man.

Well that explains a lot.

Go and do some reading instead of wasting women’s time.

legendaryI’m not talking about being a prostitute, I’m talking about doing sexual stuff that I now realise was a terrible idea.

If you didn't know it was a terrible idea, then how could your sexual partners have known? But if you're going to go down this road, then we shouldn't be having sex with anyone else just in case they regret it in the future.

If you think it’s such a great choice, can you honestly say you’d be fine with your daughter doing it? Or your mum?
I don't have a daughter, but as for mum, I'm sure she's perfectly capable of making her own choices and she doesn't need me to mansplain to her what I think is best.

The OP should ask her son if her daughter were to make the choice to be a prostitute would he be happy to pass on her contact details and a note of her specialities to his hetero friends?

I mean my son supplements his income by giving piano and guitar tuition. I'm happy to pass on his details. If being a prostitute is just another job her brother should have no qualms about passing on his sister's details, if she were to choose to do so.

legendary and it is also seen as a problem in the gay community that gay men often view other gay men as objects.

So what’s your point or are you just derailing?

These are just vulgar euphemisms that men use whenever they find a woman attractive. They aren't indicative of how these men view and respect other people.

I think they ARE indicative of how they view women (and yes, vice versa if women use them).
It doesn't make them particularly bad people, no, but it does (in my eyes) suggest they don't have a great deal of depth. It's often confirmed with tales of their exploits 'took a bird home', 'met some slapper' etc. Some of it's bravado, I accept that, but it's just a lousy way to view women and sex. Moreover, there really are some men who treat women with little else but disdain. They really do view them as a disposable receptacle for their spunk. That's certainly not a majority of men, but it's a very unhealthy minority.

As for being able to determine who is being coerced and who isn't - of course there will be obvious signs in the most extreme cases, but the worrying truth is that some women will learn to hide the coercion incredibly well, because their safety demands they hide it well.

I would still be opposed to stripping as it both reflects and reinforces the position of women in society as objects to be purchased for sexual service to men

The problem with the "Women are sexual objects" argument is that it falls apart once you remember that there are plenty of men who strip for other men.

legendary I’m not talking about being a prostitute, I’m talking about doing sexual stuff that I now realise was a terrible idea.

If you think it’s such a great choice, can you honestly say you’d be fine with your daughter doing it? Or your mum?

legendary because it’s not actually a choice, is it?

If it was, men would do it, mc educated women would do it.

But the statistics prove that this is very much not the case.

I had terrible mh problems in my 20s and was incredibly vocal about my sexual ‘choices’. No one would have said I was coerced because I was all about the ‘choice’ shite.*

Confused.

Why would you talk to clients about your "sexual choices," and give them a false illusion that everything was completely of your own free will, when that wasn't the case?

Can I just make it clear I don't particularly care whether a prostitute has been coerced or not - in the sense that lack of coercion does not make prostitution acceptable.

Poster FloraFox said this. It refers to stripping but applies equally to prostitution.

I appreciate I am recycling arguments but (a) they were well made in the first place and (b) it gets wearisome having to respond to the "sex work is just a job" lie.

At the end of the day, even if you could produce unimpeachable evidence that every single stripper has chosen stripping over being a doctor, makes (and pays taxes on) more money than a banker and fondly recounts tales of her stripping days to her children, I would still be opposed to stripping as it both reflects and reinforces the position of women in society as objects to be purchased for sexual service to men
FloraFox

Teenagers tend to go with the ‘choooooice’ thing if they’re privileged because they’ve never NOT had choice.

What?

Her kids are saying it's OK for people to make their own choices.

They're not saying it's OK when people dont have a choice. No one would suggest that's OK.

legendary

I had terrible mh problems in my 20s and was incredibly vocal about my sexual ‘choices’. No one would have said I was coerced because I was all about the ‘choice’ shite.

But it wasn’t like that at all. It’s not all Russian peasant girls being tricked, you know.

I think I probably thought the same at that age.

Teenagers tend to go with the ‘choooooice’ thing if they’re privileged because they’ve never NOT had choice. It’s only once they’re older that the scales hopefully fall from their eyes!

It’s probably not much of a surprise to notice that the Guardian can be uncritical in its reporting on this theme:

That article isn't expressing the Guardians view on the subject, it opens with "a review finds..." The Guardian tends to express a mixture of opinions on the subject from a mixture of different writers. Do keep in mind that Julie Bindel writes for the Guardian, and that mumsnet looks like a soft liberal feminist website in comparison to the stuff she writes.

People are watching too much American TV where porn is produced in good quality studios and there's an air of legitimacy around it all.
They forget the countless underground studios in Eastern Europe and Russia (and for that matter London) where less 'glamourous' porn is being made. - often webcam girls, or short 'scene' films.
I shudder to think what goes on with the real underground stuff, as the stuff on the open internet is bad enough.

I use the term 'glamorous' in the sense that's the image that American type porn wants to promote. Just because something is big business, it doesn't make it any more legitimate. They still want to promote the idea that women function purely as sexual objects. It is so pathetic, it would be laughable were it not for the damage it's causing.

a service provider's value increases with experience. If your value decreases with experience, you are the product, not a sevice provider.

That’s a really insightful and depressing way of looking at it.

Porn stars are safe????

What world do you live in?

The one where his boner is more important than reality.