Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.

The point isn't that sex workers are drunk. It's that individuals CAN make individual choices, but it doesn't make them good choices. It doesn't mean they are always in the best position to make those choices.

I didn't miss the point. I got that, but I thought it was a daft analogy because drunk people are actually legally regarded as being incapable of making sound decisions. Contracts signed when drunk, for example, are legally invalid. But anyway...

If a man or woman enjoys sex, and want to have sex for money, then of course, that is a personal matter for them, but it doesn't happen in isolation, it has social consequences, and those consequences are not always beneficial.

If I put money into a woman's hands in private, that only affects the two of us. It doesn't "create demand" if my money is only going into the pockets of a handful of women.

Prostitution in the UK is not illegal per se, providing it is done privately (partly because it's nigh on impossible to prove / police). Doing it in public is illegal for both the seller and purchaser because it impinges on the rest of society.

That's a matter of opinion. I would disagree because countries like Germany seem to be doing OK.

Torn maybe street workers are in a place of 'absolute desperation' but what do you think about the higher end of the market, the so called 'high class hookers' who can make several thousand per night servicing very rich clients? Are they also desperate? Because if so I'd have thought a few nights work and boom! Thats you sorted for a good while.

It's not a matter of who consents freely and who doesn't. Of course some will make a rational choice to give a massage 'with extras' because there is money to be made from it...

The issue is that in doing so (through individual choice), the wider industry is supported and the exploited remain exploited.

It's complex. A woman in London operating a webcam service in the safety of her own home, is having an impact on a pimp run webcam studio in Romania where women are not so well looked after, because gullible men want to believe the majority of women are doing it as a lifestyle choice not from absolute desperation.

On the sex workers working when sober issue - I don't know what it was like at other places but the 'massage parlour' I worked at actually sold speed to the girls, to help them stay awake/give them energy. So hardly sober.

First of all, virtually all sex workers work when sober, not when drunk. Second, I have never been drunk and believed I was fit to drive.

You have missed the point by a country mile.
The point isn't that sex workers are drunk. It's that individuals CAN make individual choices, but it doesn't make them good choices. It doesn't mean they are always in the best position to make those choices.

'Freewill' of the individual does not override the rest of society.
If a man or woman enjoys sex, and want to have sex for money, then of course, that is a personal matter for them, but it doesn't happen in isolation, it has social consequences, and those consequences are not always beneficial. That is why we have laws. It's why we try to curtail prostitution and keep it off the streets.

Prostitution in the UK is not illegal per se, providing it is done privately (partly because it's nigh on impossible to prove / police). Doing it in public is illegal for both the seller and purchaser because it impinges on the rest of society.

PJ do you pay women to have sex with you and pretend to enjoy it?

I decided to work in a brothel/massage parlour when I was a student many years ago . It absolutely was a choice... I was skint but the alternative was working in a sandwich shop for £3 an hour and I turned that down.

It wasn't a great experience and I didn't do it for long, but I don't think it's fair to say that women who do this have no other choice. That may be true for some, but for many, like me and possibly other student sex workers, there is a choice. I just chose the easy money ( I could make £200 in a night which is a lot when you're a student (and this was 20 years ago) it easily funded my party lifestyle).

I can't be the only one who chose easy money like this. Not saying its a good or bad choice but lets not pretend no sex workers ever have a choice or can freely consent. I did.

What's your basis for believing that you have greater knowledge and insight than someone who has decided to sell sex? How do you know their circumstances better than they do? Why should they follow your decisions as opposed to trusting their own judgement?

I don't... because I am not placing MY judgment on an individual. I am placing it on the industry as a whole, and the majority of sex workers do NOT want to be doing it. The majority of workers in the industry aren't in the best of places and need help to escape it, not a minority of folks promoting the supposed benefits of it.

First of all, virtually all sex workers work when sober, not when drunk. Second, I have never been drunk and believed I was fit to drive

Oh christ

Think youre on your own tom

No, because the individual doesn't always know, and there is collective repercussion / consequence.

What's your basis for believing that you have greater knowledge and insight than someone who has decided to sell sex? How do you know their circumstances better than they do? Why should they follow your decisions as opposed to trusting their own judgement?

Should be let an individual decide for themselves when they are fit to drive after having a drink? If they feel ok - it must be safe right? (cough)

First of all, virtually all sex workers work when sober, not when drunk. Second, I have never been drunk and believed I was fit to drive.

Oh yeah id forgotten the sex worker bit also covered pimps

Might go someway to explain the male discrepancy

he overwhelming majority of people who buy sex don't view the person as an object. I have yet to meet someone who does.

You know loads of people who buy sex

Alrighty

damn typos everywhere - using phone

and even if were true - 1/3 are men - that would leave 2/3 being women and you have the audacity to question the gender inequality?

Hmmm. That's just being wilfully blind.

The buyers are nearly always men, and it's extremely rare for a woman to pay for sex, but a third of sex workers are men (I thought I had already covered this.)

Yes you stated it - you didn't 'cover it' - implying to made some amazing point that nobody grasped.

But I'll bite. 1/3 of WHICH sex workers? where are your figures from? UK, worldwide?
What is the nature of their sex work? pimp, intermediary, brothel owner, porn producer? Do you have the breakdown? I know you don't, because there is no official stat for this. There are some stats from American porn, but those are very skewed and deduced from movie credits!

But prove me wrong - show me your stats and the breakdown of their involvement in sex work.

Shouldn't the people who work as sex workers decide for themselves whether it's degrading?

No, because the individual doesn't always know, and there is collective repercussion / consequence.

Should be let an individual decide for themselves when they are fit to drive after having a drink? If they feel ok - it must be safe right? (cough)

My opposition to prostitution is not necessarily based on gender inequality. Prostitution is degrading and debasing.

Shouldn't the people who work as sex workers decide for themselves whether it's degrading?

It is treating people as objects to be used for the sexual gratification of the buyer.

Not at all. The overwhelming majority of people who buy sex don't view the person as an object. I have yet to meet someone who does.

The buyers will of course in the vast majority of cases be men so actually even there gender plays a significant part.

The buyers are nearly always men, and it's extremely rare for a woman to pay for sex, but a third of sex workers are men (I thought I had already covered this.)

I don't think any woman has said sex work ONLY happens because of gender inequality, I think they will argue is a reflection of it.

You also went on to explain how male sex workers often cater to gay men - once again, completely missing the point that men are the predominant purchasers of sex. Some of the men are gay, but it's still a man buying the sex.

Yes, you'll argue some women buy sex too, and they do, but it's a fraction of the overwhelming majority. It doesn't undermine the fact that the sex industry caters largely to men, ideally to paying men and either exploits common male fantasies about the sexualisation of women, or it influences their perceptions about female sexuality because they believe porn scenes are somehow accurate reflections of what women want.

Finally, porn is also influencing young women who are being conditioned to believe they need to repeat the same porn acts in order for them to be good lovers, or to be 'normal' in bed.

When we were young, we'd look at the odd dirty magazine to learn something, or pick up from peers and elders about things. Nowadays, the internet is often the first port of call to 'discover' about sex, and the overwhelming message kids will see is 'yep, you need to do anal sex, you need to be bi, you need to like it rough, you need want group sex etc etc'.

Agree with marguerita and toms'posts

To be fair its probably better to say i agree with everyone apart from PJ....so far at least

Though pj is spot on about Jay

Again, I have never met any men who think like this

Well i havent met any women who talk about men in the way described upthread

Not going to say there aren't any...i just haven't heard them

Correct, but if sex work only happens because of gender inequality, or because women are viewed by society as sex objects, then male sex workers and strippers would not exist. The fact that male sex workers exist completely invalidates the "gender inequality" theory.

No it doesn't.

Gender inequality does not mean ALL women fair worse than ALL men, it means 'on the whole' women fair worse than men, and this is reflected in porn, prostitution, violence, sexual assaults, pay, opportunity and more...

1000 women exploited by men, and 100 men exploited by women, The inequality is there. You're trying to suggest the 100 men disproves it - ludicrous and illogical.