Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.

How do you square the fact that the more you do it the more the chances of you contributing to someones abuse get closer to 1:1? I mean sure I don't know where the precise ratio of happy hookers/ desperate abuse victims is, nobody does exactly. But unless you believe NO women are suffering in prostitution then the fact is you might be able to get away with doing it once or twice without causing harm, but the more you do it you come to the inescapable fact that yours becomes one of the indelible faces that will continue to haunt some poor woman for the rest of her life.

If you can do the mental maths and come to the conclusion it doesn't matter or it's worth the risk, then fine, but I reserve the right to think you're ultimately a callous unfeeling bastard, and view anything you say with the deepest suspicion as you are always going to place your orgasms ahead of the wellbeing of other people.

Look I'm no great ally of feminism, BUT I don't like to see people suffer so please kindly jog on unless you have something useful to add.

1.) Sex workers experience high levels of sexual violence. Globally, sex workers have a 45 to 75% chance of experiencing sexual violence at some point in their careers and a 32 to 55% chance of experiencing sexual violence in a given year.

2.) Sexual assault against individuals engaged sex work (especially criminalized forms of sex work) in the United States is also high. In Phoenix, AZ 37% of prostitution diversion program participants report being raped by a client, and 7.1% report being raped by a pimp. In Miami, FL, 34% of street-based sex workers reported violent encounters with clients in the past 90 days. In New York, 46% of indoor sex workers reported being forced to do something by a client that they did not want to do, and over 80% of street-based sex workers experienced violence.

3.) One in five police reports of sexual assault from an urban, U.S. emergency room were filed by sex workers. Sex workers were younger, poorer and suffered a greater number of injuries than other victims.

source: www.huffingtonpost.com/katherine-koster/16-facts-about-sexual-ass_b_8711720.html?guccounter=1

My comment about 'give me one happy shiny sex worker and I'll show you 20 abused ones' was a turn of phrase, but I do not think it's particularly wide of the mark.

Secondly, many of their circumstances force them to do the work, which yes, they choose to do, but they rapidly become trapped in a rut and find it difficult to escape.

The issue there is poverty, not sex work.

I agree with the Nordic model and think it is the safest solution.

Why criminalise the clients when the majority of sex workers have said they don't want their clients to be arrested?

Any form of abuse will indirectly harm their ability to generate income. If they have food, and they're happy, and not being harmed... then in what way are they being abused?

They can be abused in non physical ways, or non-visible ways.
Firstly in most studios ALL their conversations are monitored, and so they are not at liberty to actually be 100% honest. Secondly, many of their circumstances force them to do the work, which yes, they choose to do, but they rapidly become trapped in a rut and find it difficult to escape. Their pay can be withheld, their terms and conditions altered and many are not able to contest it because they keep their work secret from family etc.
You simply cannot trust a woman on a webcam to tell you the truth. She may be honest, she may not be, but you will never know as long as you're paying her and she's operating with bosses looking over her shoulder.

I readily accept some will be happy doing what they do - but it's still supporting a wider industry that harms women, and you can never be 100% sure if a woman's truly happy doing it or not.

Something like 80% of homeless people are men. If a man finds himself destitute, he will usually have no choice but to grab a sleeping bag and be on the streets. For woman, a lot of the time (from my experience of working with homeless people) they will turn to sex work, in the form of stripping or prostitution.
I agree with the Nordic model and think it is the safest solution. I don’t think criminalising these woman is the answer. I don’t think anyone should be in a position that they have to choose but sadly the world isn’t perfect, and if a woman decides she wishes to make money from sex work as opposed to sleeping on the street - by punishing her we are effectively punishing the poor.
Surrogacy should never be something poor people do for rich people. I would do it for my sister in a heartbeat but it should all be about choice.
Porn is never going to disappear, the issue is not porn making people do this and that. The issue is people not being sufficiently educated by their parents/teachers about sex. If they think gang bangs and buccake is normal sex, someone’s failed somewhere and to blame it on the porn industry is another example of lazy education and parenting.

And another point goes shooting over your head

Its not all about you

That's exactly what I said.

I did say "I wouldnt do this or i wouldnt do that"

Which means it isn't all about me... which is what I said.

*I'm single, but if I was in a relationship... faking it is one thing, but if my hypothetical partner actually disliked what I was doing, or found it painful, I would like to think that she would tell me.

If I can trust a sex worker to tell me they dislike something (and they always do) then surely I could trust a partner to tell me the same.*

You're not understand my point.
My point is that some sex workers dare not tell you they do not like it because their pimp will hurt them more then you will. That might not be the case in some high class escort service, but it IS the case further down the chain.

Let me spell it out. She will say 'yes I love anal sex' because she needs your money. If it hurts, she will not always tell you because it does not hurt as much as not having any money. And even if you can somehow detect when you are doing something she does not like... the man who visits her right after you may not give a damn, and he will hurt her even when she's begging him to stop.

It's not a nice industry. You can pull out examples of women who haven't suffered much (or at all), but for every one of those there will be 20 others who have. 'On the whole' porn and prostitution do nothing to advance equality for women, they only help to maintain inequality.

And unless tom goes completely off piste i agree with whatever he and pink say moving forward on this thread

Its all you though isnt it pj

All

I wouldnt do this or i wouldnt do that

Its not all about you

Actually, the most successful camgirls are not the ones doing the most extreme acts, but rather, the most cheerful women with a sense of humour are able to build rapport with their clients and establish a loyal fan base. If you look on Chaturbate, the most successful women are the "classy" women with nice personalities and nice rooms. What makes you think clients want abused women instead?

My God.
That's the whole point - you do not KNOW which are abused and which are not, which are really happy and which are pretending to be.
However, ask them if they will do things for free. I doubt they will, so at least you know they aren't doing it for pleasure they are doing it for money.
You do realise that some of the Eastern European studios are very hi-tech right? they don't all look seedy, and the girls don't all look malnourished, but that doesn't make it any less exploitative.

Again I reiterate, that not everyone is exploited, but the industry as a whole does have many exploited women (and some men too) - too many to be justified by calls of 'well, some women really like doing it'.

You revolting shit.

That's not nice.

Some prostitutes will suffer if they exhibit ANY sign of not liking it. 'Keep the punters happy, or you will suffer'.

I know you haven't met me, but I can assure you that I'm a fairly placid, nerdy-looking and non-threatening individual. No sex worker has ever had a problem telling me "I don't do that," and I have never challenged anyone who has said that to me.

I don't express any signs of being unhappy when denied a service, and no one watches us having sex... so even if there was a theoretically pimp in another room (but I'm certain there isn't) then he would have no reason to believe I'm unhappy.

If many men can't tell when their partners are faking pleasure, they sure as hell cannot tell when a woman whose very livelihood depends on a convincing act are doing it.

I'm single, but if I was in a relationship... faking it is one thing, but if my hypothetical partner actually disliked what I was doing, or found it painful, I would like to think that she would tell me.

If I can trust a sex worker to tell me they dislike something (and they always do) then surely I could trust a partner to tell me the same.

The only impact it has is that the women in London would reduce demand for the Romanian women. The time I spend watching the London woman on webcam is time that I'm not spending watching the Romanian women.

Nope, because do not always know which is which. The pimps in Romania then have to work their girls even harder. Do you think they hold their hands up and say 'oh dear, a lady in London won the business, so our profits fall?' - no they say 'you'd better win back the business by doing more extreme acts, and for less money'.

No, not forced but a lot did. If you're doing a 7pm to 7am shift shagging it kind of helps.

Ah the legendary Prostitute's John. Now I get it. And henceforth shall you be known and understood.
You revolting shit.

That's a matter of opinion. I would disagree because countries like Germany seem to be doing OK.

s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/

Legalising it doesn't make the reality of sex work any less grim.
Is Germany doing 'ok'?
What about the girls in Germany... are THEY doing ok?

but the 'massage parlour' I worked at actually sold speed to the girls, to help them stay awake/give them energy. So hardly sober.

Were they forced to take it? I hope not.

They don't have to pretend to enjoy it if they don't want to. I hope they do, but I think most of them are neutral about it. As long as they don't dislike the experience, that's OK. They would tell me if they disliked something and in that case, I wouldn't do it.

Some prostitutes will suffer if they exhibit ANY sign of not liking it. 'Keep the punters happy, or you will suffer'.
There's a much wider world than the UK out there... and some seriously abused young women who know little else but to fake pleasure convincingly.
If many men can't tell when their partners are faking pleasure, they sure as hell cannot tell when a woman whose very livelihood depends on a convincing act are doing it.