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Original poster

Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.

238 replies

Cismyfatarse1 · 29/12/2018 19:34

Help!

DS who is ridiculously clever, 18 and knows everything has been, along with DD (16) (Alsoclever but prepared to admit to not knowing everything) arguing amicably with me on and off all day.

Both of them were arguing that women should be free to choose to be prostitutes / porn stars / rent out their wombs.

I disagreed vehemently because we can't have laws that allow exploitation of the most vulnerable. Plus, these (particularly the first two) make women commodities for men.

Any clear arguments I can use? Links? Sources.

DS - who is gay - didn't see that if prostitution was so desirable a job, then men would do it. He also didn't see that consent is not really consent if you are vulnerable or being groomed / exploited. His life has been quite comfy. DD - no real life experience, didn't get that, as women, we are often seen as vessels for carrying / entering and that a penis in your mouth / cunt / bum is very different from just being physically close with someone who you don't fancy.

Both of them insisted that porn is watched by lots of women and that porn star is a desirable job for some and that porn stars are safe.

I gave it my all but really do want them to SEE!! Their generation, they argue, is not uptight about sex so selling it is no big deal.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
Melanippe · 30/12/2018 21:20

thenightsky it horrifies me. I'm so sorry if it upset you though.

thenightsky · 30/12/2018 21:15

That's good news. I think 2,000 NIS is about £900 isn't it? Hit em hard.

R0wantrees · 30/12/2018 20:58

recent news from Israel:
"The Knesset is set to pass a landmark law against prostitution making hiring sex workers a crime, rather than the work itself, after a committee authorized it for a second and third reading.

The new law will make Israel the 10th country to institute what is called the “Nordic Model” of combating human trafficking and prostitution. The law is scheduled to a final vote next week, at the last minute before the Knesset breaks for the early election.

There are currently 14,000 people involved in sex work in Israel, including 3,000 minors, according to the Welfare Ministry, and 76% would leave sex work if they could. The average lifespan of a prostitute in Israel is 46 years.

When the law goes into effect, a first-time offender will be fined NIS 2,000 for hiring or attempting to hire a prostitute and NIS 4,000 for further offenses. It also allows for pressing charges and fining the offender up to NIS 75,300. It offers the Justice Ministry the option of instituting other punishments, such as “John Schools,” meant to educate those who paid for sex.

The law does not only make frequenting prostitutes a criminal offense, it seeks to help people leave sex work and find other careers. It budgets NIS 90 million over the next three years for the rehabilitation of prostitutes.

Knesset Subcommittee to Combat Trafficking of Women and Prostitution head, Aliza Lavie (Yesh Atid), said the bill includes “budgets for rehabilitation, accompanying research, and help in finding employment are inseparable parts of implementing the law. With every day that passes [without the new law], more women are hurt.” (continues)
www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Israel-to-become-10th-country-to-criminalize-hiring-prostitutes-575393

thenightsky · 30/12/2018 20:57

Melanippe Wow at that invisible men link Sad

thenightsky · 30/12/2018 20:49

OP. Suggest your DS and DD watch 'Doing Money'. Its on BBC iplayer. Based on a true story. Awful and made me cry.

R0wantrees · 30/12/2018 20:43

There were some excellent speakers and resources at the first 'CEASE' conference in November.

from website
"CEASE UK stands for the Centre to End All Sexual Exploitation.

That is our aim: to see an end to everything from CSE, sex trafficking and prostitution to the vast global pornography and sexual entertainment industries that legitimise the abuse.

We will seek to achieve our aims through:

Lobbying: campaigning to end laws and policies that facilitate sexual exploitation.

  1. Collaboration: unifying the movement so that diverse charities, organisations and individuals can come together in mutual support.
3.Education: raising awareness of the links between all forms of sexual exploitation and to fight it through programs of outreach, education and engagement with the media. In standing against sexual exploitation, we stand for equality, justice and human dignity."

links and newsletter here:
ceaseuk.org/blog/

MNHQ
HebeMumsnet · 30/12/2018 20:38

Thanks for the reports on this, folks. We've escorted PJ to the door (again). We've deleted a few posts that we felt were a bit creepy, too.

thornyhousewife · 30/12/2018 20:34

And thanks for the event link - I'd like to go to this.

thornyhousewife · 30/12/2018 20:33

Rowan - ah that makes sense.

#livingtheirbestlife

R0wantrees · 30/12/2018 20:32

twitter.com/SPACEintl/status/1079413817010982912

Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.
Tomdix · 30/12/2018 20:24

It is ironic that the countries where women “choose” to go to sell their bodies are often those that make the greater claim for female emancipation and equality of opportunity.

MargueritaPink · 30/12/2018 20:23

Kudos to torn, critequal, rufus for keeping going.

CritEqual · 30/12/2018 20:13

Ok so if they genuinely like your company (if not your body), how many do you think would agree to a casual coffee after your next session?

Also you said you shy away from social situations, which means by definition you get a lot less socialisation than you would otherwise.

I'm sorry but you can't have your cake and eat it. Either you are a decent sound compassionate man, that cares about others. Or you are a man that places his own physical pleasure above others. I could sort of accept you a bit more if you were just honest and said "Actually yeah mate I really don't give THAT much of a crap I just really like sex above and beyond any of these other concernes" It's this bonkers mental gymnastics where you seem to want to present yourself as fundementally good man AND get to enjoy using people for sex. No sorry you don't get to have both.

thornyhousewife · 30/12/2018 20:12

And you don't perceive how their disadvantage grows the more we normalise sex work as a mutual transaction instead of abuse?

I'm not being contrary - I genuinely struggle to understand the world view of those in favour of prostitution.

LegendaryPJ · 30/12/2018 20:10

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LegendaryPJ · 30/12/2018 20:05

PJ, how come you're still not acknowledging the women and girls who don't get a choice?

I do. I have already said in this thread that the issue there is poverty, not sex work.

LegendaryPJ · 30/12/2018 20:04

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Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 30/12/2018 20:03

C) someone bought the shoes for them

thornyhousewife · 30/12/2018 20:02

PJ, how come you're still not acknowledging the women and girls who don't get a choice?

Melanippe · 30/12/2018 20:01

This is PJ and all the other men like him who feel the need to stick their cocks into women who wouldn't entertain them if they weren't paying them. In their own words, describing human beings.

It's not pleasant reading.

Invisible Men

CritEqual · 30/12/2018 19:57

PJ sigh you're telling me you have no trouble detecting complex issues in a strangers life, yet find social situations awkward. Can you not see a whopping contradiction there?

The presence of a pair of £700 shoes or an iPad ISN'T emblemetic of a life free from abuse nor trauma.

You also said upthread that you don't think many women would be open to a friends with benefits situation (I happen to disagree there but hey!), yet there are legions of women willing to enjoy casual sex anyway with a nice little cash boost as well. Which is it? You are contradicting yourself.

LegendaryPJ · 30/12/2018 19:56

I'm trying to imagine what their lives are like and what they'd think if they could overhear the rhetoric of 'yeah but they had expensive shoes on so it's ok'.

If someone is wearing £700 shoes, then they either
(a) don't have any real financial problems, or
(b) can't make sensible spending decisions.

thornyhousewife · 30/12/2018 19:52

Perhaps we disagree about the size of the the iceberg's tip, but it feels disingenuous at best to be in support of prostitution without at least acknowledging that the majority of women and girls in prostitution don't have a choice, no?

I'm trying to imagine what their lives are like and what they'd think if they could overhear the rhetoric of 'yeah but they had expensive shoes on so it's ok'.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 30/12/2018 19:49

thorny

ask your children to try and think globally, rather than domestically

Thats a good idea