Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Prostitution / Pornography/ Surrogacy.

238 replies

Cismyfatarse1 · 29/12/2018 19:34

Help!

DS who is ridiculously clever, 18 and knows everything has been, along with DD (16) (Alsoclever but prepared to admit to not knowing everything) arguing amicably with me on and off all day.

Both of them were arguing that women should be free to choose to be prostitutes / porn stars / rent out their wombs.

I disagreed vehemently because we can't have laws that allow exploitation of the most vulnerable. Plus, these (particularly the first two) make women commodities for men.

Any clear arguments I can use? Links? Sources.

DS - who is gay - didn't see that if prostitution was so desirable a job, then men would do it. He also didn't see that consent is not really consent if you are vulnerable or being groomed / exploited. His life has been quite comfy. DD - no real life experience, didn't get that, as women, we are often seen as vessels for carrying / entering and that a penis in your mouth / cunt / bum is very different from just being physically close with someone who you don't fancy.

Both of them insisted that porn is watched by lots of women and that porn star is a desirable job for some and that porn stars are safe.

I gave it my all but really do want them to SEE!! Their generation, they argue, is not uptight about sex so selling it is no big deal.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
OrgyofSausages · 29/12/2018 20:00

They are 18 and 16, and by your own admission their lives have been "quite comfy".

Get them to watch the episode in the recent channel 5 series about sex work which focussed on prostitution. It would make someone with a heart of stone weep. I'll try and look up a link.

GoulashSoup · 29/12/2018 19:59

Will see if I can find the actual stats, but if I remember correctly surrogacy has something like 30% risk of pre-eclampsia (compared with 4% in rest of the population) thought to be due to the fact that that the baby (and placenta) are completely alien to the maternal immune system.

I will try to find the stats, but it is more risky than a normal pregnancy (still a massively risky thing to do).

Original poster
Cismyfatarse1 · 29/12/2018 19:59

That article is brilliant and well written and covers everything. They are out partying tonight but have e-mailed it to them.

Neither of them has been preyed on by men, as yet although DS has protected female friends on occasion. While I don't want that for them, it might make them see more clearly the kind of men that want access to women forced into prostitution.

OP posts:
Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 19:58

Sorry, i should say we didn't discuss surrogacy

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 29/12/2018 19:57

myfatarse

Ds1 and his boyfriend were having the same discussion with me

Not so much ds1 as he knows me

What seemed to work was me asking them if it was a perfectly good job if they would be happy if it was seen as a career choice for them , their sisters or mothers

And if it were seen as a mainstream job if the unemployed were forced to do it

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/12/2018 19:54

Yes show them the work of some of the charities that work with obstetric fistula

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/12/2018 19:53

Ask them how they’d feel if you, their mum, decided to do porn. Ask them if they, as males, would consent to do really hardcore porn. If not, why not?

Ask them how they’d feel if bought organs were as common as surrogacy and they were under economic pressure to give up a kidney. Ask them why we don’t have paid blood donation and paid organ donation.

Ask them to think about what choices are truly free. Are any choices free? What limits their choices ? What limits the choices of a poor man born in a slum in Karachi? What limits the choices of a poor girl born in slum in India?

At the end of the day you can only explain to them. They’re young - and sometimes you need to see and experience stuff to truly get it.

You won’t change their minds with one argument. But with a steady drip drip of commentary on the news, history and current affairs you might.

Original poster
Cismyfatarse1 · 29/12/2018 19:47

Interesting about childbirth risks. I think they both assume it is pretty easy so that is a very good point.

OP posts:
Exceptionallyeccentric · 29/12/2018 19:46

Discuss the risks of pregnancy and childbirth.
Then Ask them, outside of a family arrangement, if they think financially well off women take the risks for poorer women to have a child.

RebelWitchFace · 29/12/2018 19:44

I've been there as the teen ,young woman.
The only thing that really and truly opened my eyes was life experiences and horrific stories that made me realise that "choice" is an illusion and even if there is true choice for the very few,it doesn't justify the abuse,torture, exploitation, kidnapping ,murder of the many.

53rdWay · 29/12/2018 19:43

Do they think we should also scrap all employment laws, so that people can be free to choose to work 90 hour weeks/for £1 an hour/under unsafe conditions?

AssassinatedBeauty · 29/12/2018 19:39

I'd ask why they think other generations are "uptight" about sex? What are they basing that massive assumption on? Being anti-porn and anti-prostitution isn't the same as being anti-sex.

Did they think that no woman would ever be in a situation where they could be exploited? That seems naive.