Why are people so afraid?

I speak out offline, to my friends.

Some of us have trans-identifying kids to be concerned about too. These AWA people have a moral compass straight out of Pirates of the Caribbean, and I have no doubt whatsoever they would be happy to put those children at risk. Us parents, not so much.

Indeed, Mariotta . I’m not in this situation but I do have a few trans people in my immediate and extended social circle, and while I’m not extremely close to them I know that anything I said on this issue would be seen as an attack on them personally. Even if it were an option, which it’s not for the reasons I gave above, I would be scared to hurt them. Like most of us here, my issue is with the incoherence and misogyny of the ideology, not with trans people themselves.

Many people also have a trans-identifying person in their family and this can make it difficult to speak out under a real name.

I should add that the reason I personally am afraid to speak up publicly is because I would lose my livelihood and the vast majority of my social group, including possibly my partner and my stepson. And that’s no exaggeration, as I’ve seen it happen to others in very similar circumstances - i.e. working in art and associating mostly with people who are artists or work in the art world.

Just wanted to say what a great post newtlover on page 1 had.

The comparison with the more extreme forms of trans ideology and PIE is often made, and I think that’s a good one, in terms of e.g. puberty blockers for GNC kids and males in female sports being eventually seen as glaringly wrong and the mass uptake of these ideas as quite baffling.

I believe this is inevitable, but what worries me is that unlike with PIE the current generation of young people is so thoroughly indoctrinated that it may take more than a lifetime for the inevitable to happen.

YouAreANoddingDog I think you misunderstand me. My issue is with people criticising women for NOT standing up and telling them that they are letting the side down for not being vocal. I am not talking about you specifically, merely pointing out that telling women that they should just speak out displays a misunderstanding of the fact that so many women cannot weather the storm or face the backlash in a way that others can.

Yes, I am making a choice when deciding that it's not worth losing my job over this. But I am also making a choice when someone holds a gun to my head and orders me to hand over my PIN number and cash-cards. I could refuse. Talking about choice is relatively unhelpful, because they aren't truly free choices.

Agree with funky

If I lost my job my family would lose our home. No-one would care. If I was twenty years younger or twenty years older I would be much more vocal.

Most people either work for big private companies or in the public sector, so that’s most jobs you would get sacked from, isn’t it?

What jobs can you do where you wouldn’t risk dismissal for this?

I am not going to give up my livelihood for this and to suggest to anyone that this is a viable option does reek of privileg

Receipts please, who apart from yourself said this?

It means either that you work in a profession or for an employer where this would not be as big an issue as it would in other jobs (whether due to the type of job or your seniority), or that you are not the sole breadwinner in your household

You think I am in a senior role with my standard of English? I am surprised the old attack of IQ isn't being brought out. I am the only adult in my home. You sound like the judgmental one and I am done with you attacking me because of your life choices, I already said what your choose is up to you. Yet you keep judging others, inventing words in their mouth and transferring your stuff on others.

You choose not to retrain, your choice restricts you, not me, you live with your lifestyle and decisions, it's not others fault.

I know Julie et al cop a lot of flack for their views, but they also have a lot of supporters. If I got doxxed and then fired, literally nobody from the general public would give a shit or support me.

YY.

For whatever reason you choose to remain in a job that blocks your freedom of expression, odd choice to be critical of women who don't have the same priorities as you.

I wouldn't be able to do my job- the thing I have trained for for years if I was open about my views. If I don't work, I don't eat. It's relatively simple. I am not going to give up my livelihood for this and to suggest to anyone that this is a viable option does reek of privilege I am afraid. It means either that you work in a profession or for an employer where this would not be as big an issue as it would in other jobs (whether due to the type of job or your seniority), or that you are not the sole breadwinner in your household and that losing your job would not have such a devastating impact as it would on others.

That is before we get onto issues of mental health, anxiety and depression. Yes, high profile women get a lot of abuse, but they have way more support from followers than your bog-standard secondary school teacher whose head gets confronted with a petition calling for her to be fired immediately.

I 'choose' to remain in a job that would probably cause me significant issues were I more public than I am because I have to pay for food and shelter for my family.

I am actually probably far more 'out' than is probably sensible online, and a little bit of digging would be all it took to dox me. I would not welcome it, and it may well cost me my job. Yes, I'd feel the sweet justification of the martyr for the cause, but that would do fuck all to keep my kids in shoes and beans on toast.

Everyone makes tough choices about the sacrifices they are willing to make, and I totally understand why Julie Bindel gets annoyed, and I speak up in support of her lots. The divide and conquer stuff is absolute nonsense.

Working class women often do not have the luxury to 'choose' jobs where they may speak freely. Other women do and good luck to them, they have my support.

I think that politics is in a terrible place in general at the moment. If you hold the wrong views you will be ostracised, companies are desperate not to be seen as evil money making machines. The Scottish gvt hate crime campaign thing is an example. Many people will have no idea what a "transphobe" even is. Hate crime law is in IMO a backward step anyway and it's been used to insulate groups from being challenged.

All these things are lumped together, it's very worrying. If you think a man has no place in women's facilities you're basically a nazi.

The people who say 'why are people so afraid' are obviously lucky enough not to work in jobs where they would get in trouble for voicing opinions.

Nope, I made choices and refused chances that would benefit me personally.

I don't ask everyone to do that, to call others privileged when you make different personal choices is no different to policing another woman for FF v BF in my opinion.

For whatever reason you choose to remain in a job that blocks your freedom of expression, odd choice to be critical of women who don't have the same priorities as you.

The people who say 'why are people so afraid' are obviously lucky enough not to work in jobs where they would get in trouble for voicing opinions. So self-employed, not working, or retired or something. It's not a myth that people have been subjected to the most horrendous harassment for stating relatively innocuous views. It's real and it's happening. If you're privileged enough not to have to worry about it- go for it. But don't you start having a go at people who just don't want to get fired so that they can't house themselves and their family. Who's going to help them when they get fired? Will the brave truth-speakers step up then? Don't think so.
Someone in the media like Julie Bindel is in a very different position to someone who is employed. I know Julie and Magdalen Berns have berated women who don't risk their anonymity (and therefore livelihood), but I don't think it's right. I know Julie et al cop a lot of flack for their views, but they also have a lot of supporters. If I got doxxed and then fired, literally nobody from the general public would give a shit or support me.

Interesting observation from Call the midwife. I felt the same watching the BBC rerun of Outnumbered, policing each others language and behaviour.

yes, CP=cerebral palsy, which I guessed was what the child actor had- though I wouldn't rate him as an actor, he seemed altogether too happy and sociable for a character with the story given
Prawn, my DCs also have to put up with me shouting
'wrap that baby up! put a hat on her! look at her skin, it's wet, she's going to freeze....' etc
(ex MW)
not as bad as Eastenders though, where I walk in and say
'no wonder she's having such a hard time with that labour! what should she do kids?'
(kids) 'get off her back and onto all 4s....we know....'

As flying says lots of people have to be careful what they post if they wish to keep their job/career.

This is especially true if you work in the public or charity sector or other woke organisation.

Even if it won't affect your job, people have to consider the affect on their mental health. I'm not sure I could be as strong as others in the face of relentless online bullying.

I also think the right side of history argument is true. Look how shamefully pacifists were treated during WW1 & WW2.

For your answer I think you only have to look at how controversial it still is for a female politician to call herself a feminist.

newtlover's post reminded me of this great thread. History teaches us that most authoritarian regimes begin by deceiving people that they are left wing or progressive...

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1073538210494599168.html

And while I'm at it, this is a brilliant thread by the same author on the current climate of fear.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1075033888110624770.html

Actually I'm just going to spam you, this thread with the "Pedophile Manifesto" is bloody terrifying and also by the same author, I want to leave it here in case I ever need to find it again. It's disturbing to see how much of what's in the manifesto is already happening. Our causes are sex positivity, anti-ageism, bodily autonomy and the right to privacy...

twitter.com/pankhurstem/status/991258041038368768?lang=en

Ace post, newtlover.

I enjoy watching Call the Midwife with my DPs as DF was a newly qualified doctor doing obstetrics at the time. My DM was also working as a hospital social worker, what used to be called an almoner. They're both 90 now and their insights and reminiscences are fascinating.

Those are really good points, newtlover. We are indeed the people raising the alarm. It saddens me that people can't see it - quite often the same people who can't understand why we ever sent kids to Australia, or why the BBC didn't stop Savile. Instead they delude themselves that they're doing the "kind" thing.