ExH and his ludicrous views

Try showing some selected videos of the comedian Rachel Paris. She is on the mash report and live at the Apollo.

I thought Vegilante's point of view was perfectly valid and did not deserve the response it got. It is fine to disagree but with arguments, not insults.

I personally think, in the case of thirteen-year-olds, you definitely need to have a discussion about feminism with them.

Well would they think it was fair if any money you earned was paid to their dad?

And any money they earned if say they got a paper round?

And do they think if you needed an operation you should be able to get one without their father's permission?

If they think that's OK then they are not feminists. If they have a problem with any of those things they are a feminist.

OP, I grew up in a family where one parent made very unpleasant comments about the other (which your ex has done). So based on my own experience I would try to dial things down.

I would say oh honestly, dad is such a git sometimes, ie laughing it off, in an apparently affectionate way; then say that seriously feminists really don’t hate men, in fact they want men and women to be able to have more equal and open and fulfilling relationships.

Then, given their age, I would ask them if they want to find out more about feminism- maybe suggest watching a film together, having a family evening with popcorn. Or looking at a current affairs magazine together and talking about how the issues in it might look through a feminist lens.

The important point is that given their ages I would definitely ask “do you want to learn more?” as at that age it is easy to put them off. They need to choose to learn in order to have open minds.

Your ex sounds very bitter. This is sad for them and no doubt they will pick up on it and treat his opinions with a shovel of salt accordingly.

Hi Op, please ignore the people ticking you off like a small child, and in doing so attempting to derail the thread.

I think I would probably ask them what they think of feminism, and if they say they don't really know, then use that as an in to discuss all the great stuff Knick and Bran suggested. You could also say something light such as "well, I'm a feminist and I like plenty of men " or "That seems strange, lots of very clever people are feminists . At 13 though, it's best to keep it light and casual.

Excellent advice in the Last two posts esp Lundy.

I think id be like "wow, so your dad doesnt think that women deserve equal rights to women? How strange and what a shame"

Argh, what fun for you.

For what it's worth I'd start by laughing it off in an 'oh isn't dad funny' kind of way which switches it from something significant that has to be refuted to something a bit daft.

Then I'd pull out a few things that women have achieved like the vote, and maternity leave and ask the kids if those things are 'man hating' or if they fixed something that was unfair? Talk about the root of the word oppression and what it means, such as labour being provided by a subservient, controlled group to a more powerful one - is that right? How do the powerful group feel when their control and superior status is challenged or removed? How is that anger expressed?

And then I'd quietly do some practice around critical thinking when we ran across advertising in shops or on tv, watching films together, picking up on points of view in the papers - hmm, is that true? Why might someone want you to think that is true? What's the gain there for them? How does it help that person's agenda to sow seeds of doubt against the other person? You might want to read through some Lundy Bancroft and the Toxic Parent books for the key insights to help the kids get objectively - not talking about their dad obviously. If you have to grow up with a toxic parent you need the insight into the behaviour to know what they're doing and when they're doing it, and to have strong boundaries.

Hey folks if you could try a bit harder to derail the thread and give the op a good telling off it might even stop the children learning about the ignorance of men

This book by Jacky Fleming might give you some ways of introducing feminism to your DCs:
www.amazon.co.uk/Trouble-Women-Jacky-Fleming/dp/1910931098/ref=mp_s_a_1_12?keywords=feminism+cartoons&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&tag=mumsnetforum-21&ie=UTF8&qid=1545903080&sr=1-12

Christ. I'm certainly not going to take 'castigation' and be humble about it when some-one's flat out wrong!

It does the children no favors to be taught incorrect information.

Op, just gently step up the conversations about feminism, fairness, etc. just like I did when my younger children came home with the whole pink is for girls, blue is for boys nonsense

You were extremely rude to Vegilante. The point about the children's ages was valid and your ungracious response was unwarranted.

I'm puzzled by your failure to see what your ex has to do with this given your post is all about your ex. His views by the way are unreconstructed not deconstructed.

Op 13 is a good age to start to talk about these things

Getting that information had to be dragged out of the OP via her rude reply to Vegilante . It was clearly pertinent to the scenario. The response to a 3 year old or a 10 year old will be different to a 13 year old.

A 13 year old may well wonder why her mother chose such an "ill- educated" partner.

I've drummed feminism into my daughters so hard they question whether men are 'allowed' to do things if they haven't seen one in that role already. I think doctor was the first one questioned! They are 6 and 9.

We also favour bechdel passing films and others where the heroine doesn't require help from a man or a romance. Disney brave is a great example.

I would be failing my daughters if I didn't do this. They still have to survive in a patriarchy.

My exh has already started on his thick view of the world. Apparently I shouldn't be parking on double yellows because I am a feminist. But we are ready for his flaccid view

That's nice MargueritaPink.

Op 13 is a good age to start to talk about these things.

If they're asking what a feminist is, films like the one I linked will help to point out that women and girls are often treated unfairly by society. I'd so of say "ok so you were wondering what a feminist is - watch this: .... what is the film about?" And so on, just letting them understand inequality themselves and just calmly talking about how in the past women couldn't vote etc. They don't need it all at once, just a good little opener or two.

Don't comment on his opinions but I'd mildly point out that everyone has different opinions on all sorts of things. Eg which football team is the best, if Nando's is any good etc. That's his opinion. Your opinion is that feminism has done a lot in the world to make things more equal but still has more to do, especially in many parts of the world where women are still given fewer rights than men. And also that there are men and women working to do this together.

I'd probably also try to squeeze in other political things eg racism and key historical moments there as a way to paint a picture of how there are different movements that evolved to tackle inequality in different areas of society.

A quick google indicated quite a few films that's are supposed to be 'feminist' so I guess watching those together (not overtly, just by the by and then chat about key themes afterwards)

I'd do little things like this gradually and innocuously. It's just occurred to me that feminism isn't an area outrightly discussed in the curriculum as far as I know. Perhaps it should be.

The age of your children is relevant if you wanted a more tailored response.

Vegilante made some good points. You seem more interested in trumpeting about being a feminist. It's a pity being a feminist apparently failed you miserably when selecting a partner if you didn't spot he was so "ill educated", to use your phrase about women's rights and status. I don't claim to be a feminist but I would have never got involved in the first place with a man who held the views.

Vegilante
How patronising of you

FFS vegi your pompous twaddle is unreadable.

OP I’m sorry your ex is like this. I think the chimamanda ngozie adichie book will be great for when you eventually want a more in-depth conversation with your kids about feminism.

And vege - do you have an aggravating less than sharp ex who wants to paint you in a negative light? I don't think so.

Contrary to your presumptuous claim that I have no experience dealing with an "aggravating ex who wants to paint you in a negative light", I in fact do have 20+ years experience dealing with an ex (& his entire family) who have portrayed me negatively to my children, the press & the courts. The only difference is my ex is not "less than sharp" - he's a really smart fella who went to Yale, Oxford & Columbia & is from one of the most powerful families in the English-speaking world. I've studied psychology & particularly conflict in "broken" families in great depth. I know what "parental alienation" is & how harmful it is to kids - not just at the time in childhood it's happening to them, but what it does to them over the far longer term. This is what informed my response. Sorry you didn't like it, but you did ask.

The clearly-flawed advice of mine you've taken umbrage to was based on the assumption that your kids are under 20 rather than in their 20s, 30s or 40s. The fact that you've still not revealed how old they are, despite being asked outright, suggests that your principal concern all along has been how to prove you're right & your ex is wrong, not how to handle the situation in a way that minimizes the negative impact on your children, whatever their ages may be.

Obviously, the fault here is entirely mine. I misread your original post. That's 100% on me. Sorry! Over and out.

Nanny You did ask for "any words of advice" so please don't hold it against me that I offered mine. I never said my advice was sent down from on high. I tried to be clear that my advice was based on my own experience & observation.

Clearly, I misinterpreted what you were asking for in your original post. I mistakenly thought you wanted advice about how to handle this situation of parental conflict over misogyny & politics at Christmas in a way that would be least damaging to your children, when apparently you wanted only advice on how to most convincingly defend your own position rwt to feminism to your children in light of their father's disparaging remarks.

I did not suggest that you show humility to your ex. I said "showing your kids that it's possible to be good-natured, gracious, civil & even humble when castigated by others might be the best holiday gift you can give them". By "humble" here I didn't mean meek, deferential & subservient; I meant not arrogant & not having the need to constantly try to make one's opponents appear wrong, stupid, & "ill educated", to use your phrase about your children's father. My own experience is that kids respect, really like & are willing to confide in adults whom they perceive to be open to listening to all/a variety of POVs, as opposed to adults they regard as doctrinaire, table-thumping dictators principally invested in proving that their own POV is the only correct one. Also, I believe children/YAs can benefit greatly from learning that even strongly-opinionated adults of both sexes don't always have to insist that their opinions are the only ones in the world listening to or considering.

But hey, that's just my view. Which you did ask for.

OP, it's so frustrating. Parental alienation is real and it's abuse but women are expected to suck it up.

As my ten year old DS once said, "how come you never tell me stories about how bad Daddy is?" At bedtime.

He even mentioned a same sex relationship I was meant to have had with a former flatmate in the nineties. Neither XH nor DS have ever even met this person! Great use of contact there, you twat