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Normalisation of sexual fetishism

164 replies

QuietContraryMary · 21/12/2018 09:30

Just reading this story about a man with infantilism abusing a child

www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/sick-abuser-nappy-fetish-jailed-15579002

There are NHS doctors such as Dr. Christina Richards (transgender, gender clinic psychologist) who have written books www.amazon.co.uk/Sexuality-Gender-Mental-Health-Professionals/dp/085702843X?tag=mumsnetforum-21 to say all such fetishes are perfectly healthy, not paraphilic or to be judged. Indeed the phrase 'kink shaming' is used against those who suggest that role-playing paedophilia or similar activities is harmful.

What do we think about the 'thou shalt not judge' culture of saying that all sexual behaviour is a matter for those practising it?

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JoanneMumsnet · 21/12/2018 13:46

We've had scores of reports come in about this thread and need some time to go through it. We're suspending posting on it while we do this - hopefully it'll be possible to get things back on track.

placemats · 21/12/2018 13:45

Right now I’d settle for vanilla ice cream.

Grin I tried to find some good vanilla ice cream the other day and guess what? I couldn't find any!

R0wantrees · 21/12/2018 13:43

There is an important comparison between the implied value judgement, characterisation and /or positioning of 'het vanilla sex' vs everything else and 'cis-normals' vs queer umbrella

Thingybob · 21/12/2018 13:42

Right now I’d settle for vanilla ice cream

I confess to having a fetish, plain vanilla ice cream is boring without a flake.

Datun · 21/12/2018 13:39

I personally crave straightforward vanilla sex.

Quite. I'd far rather be worshipped towards a shuddering orgasm, than degraded into one.

AspieAndProud · 21/12/2018 13:35

I personally crave straightforward vanilla sex.

Right now I’d settle for vanilla ice cream.

placemats · 21/12/2018 13:34

Mephistopheles Devil's advocate much?

I have stopped online dating because it's no longer safe.

AspieAndProud · 21/12/2018 13:33

There is a contradiction is kink-positive culture is saying (a) there’s norhing shameful about fetishes, and (b) don’t call AGP a fetish as you are shaming people.

MephistophelesApprentice · 21/12/2018 13:32

And I will repeat what someone said on another thread, which is the definition of vanilla as ‘anything where a woman isn’t being hurt.’

So a woman fisting a man is vanilla? I need to radically reassess my online dating filters.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/12/2018 13:29

'het vanilla sex'...really? The way you phrase things..

Exactly. There is nothing wrong with being heterosexual. There is nothing wrong with sex that’s gentle. And I will repeat what someone said on another thread, which is the definition of vanilla as ‘anything where a woman isn’t being hurt.’

The idea that sex where the weaker party (because it is almost always the woman ) isn’t being hurt is somehow lesser/crap/sad/boring is disturbing to me.

placemats · 21/12/2018 13:28

I personally crave straightforward vanilla sex.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/12/2018 13:24

The brain is malleable after all.

This point bears repeating. The combination of visual stimulus reinforced by orgasm is a powerful force. There’s a significant rise in young men who are unable to orgasm without porn after prolonged exposure. This then has direct real life impact on their relationships as they seek increased stimulus.

I personally believe that violent porn is societally harmful. pointing that out gets you a pile on usually as people miss the point and inisist they use it fine. But the point isn’t that - it’s that normalising what were more extreme acts changes the sexual climate for everyone.
I’ve mentioned this before but I was a teen in the late 80/90s period and popular culture has changed HUGELY since then in relation to how sex is presented. In the mid 90s there was a much stronger climate of mutuality - female pleasure was something men boasted about being good at. Now it seems like sex is done TO women, not WITH them. The language article linked above shows how the language has changed too. But next time there’s one of those ‘best of the nineties’ shows on look at the music videos - see the difference in the Male/female dynamic.

There will always be people wanting to shift what is acceptable to benefit them. We need to be able to name what’s happening and point it out when it does. We need strong safeguarding frameworks and no groups should be able to circumvent them by claiming special status. We need clarity in the law and a willingness to enforce it. We need to hold the media to high standards and challenge things like how Natalie Connolly was portrayed (and how previous female victims have been portrayed.)

It seems like the worst thing you can be accused of at the moment is prudery, biogotry or being vanilla.

placemats · 21/12/2018 13:22

In the early 90s I was called out as freaky for having underarm hair! I had to stop shaving as I developed a very painful abscess.

QuietContraryMary · 21/12/2018 13:22

"When I grew up most boys first saw naked women in loose pages of Razzle they found in parks or on railway embankments. And things were pretty hairy back then so they couldn’t see much."

Yes this, so much this. FHM used to sell 700,000 copies by having pictures of women in bikinis.

Now they have gone bust because teenage boys can wank off to rape porn online and nobody is interested in the sort of stuff that was until quite recently the limits of taste & decency but now is tamer than a Victorian table leg.

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QuietContraryMary · 21/12/2018 13:19

"I quoted ravenlover, Mary. I had not even seen your quote."

No no. My point there was that ravenlover had 'quoted' you, removed the word 'more' from your post and then claimed you had said that sexual fetishes are the same as paedophilia, rather than merely correlated to them.

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AspieAndProud · 21/12/2018 13:18

The Overton window is constantly shifting. Ten years ago it wouldn’t have even occurred to most men to strangle their partner during sex, let alone think she’d like it.

When I grew up most boys first saw naked women in loose pages of Razzle they found in parks or on railway embankments. And things were pretty hairy back then so they couldn’t see much.

But pubic hair is now a fetish in porn. Men have to go to niche websites to find it. Even ‘natural’ breasts are something special to seek out.

starcrossedseahorse · 21/12/2018 13:09

Added to that there's growing pressure that people should not disapprove of fetishes. A suggestion disapproval is a form of bigotry

Yes this is all over platforms like twitter with accustions of 'kink shaming' or hounding people for not being 'sex positive' whatever the hell that means. Scary men are crawling out of the woodwork wherever you look and they are being cheered on by lib fems and brocialists. It is grim.

starcrossedseahorse · 21/12/2018 13:06

Jessica Eaton is so fucking brilliant and she nails it every time.

nauticant · 21/12/2018 13:06

To me the problem is that fetishes are getting more and more into the public domain. It's not so much about what people do in the privacy of their own homes any more.

Added to that there's growing pressure that people should not disapprove of fetishes. A suggestion disapproval is a form of bigotry.

These are the questions I ask myself:
What's the fetish?
What is involved in practice?
What is the power relationship between the parties?

BlindYeo · 21/12/2018 13:05

If someone defines their own fetish as 'normal and healthy', I can see why they would bridle on the thread when it's discussed as being on a spectrum with paedophilia, even though right at the other end with regard to how harmful it is to others. They think it means paedophilia is being linked to a 'healthy and normal' sexual practice.

What other people are trying to say is that maybe they need to re-think the 'healthiness' of their fetish and see why it's in fact being categorised along with other disordered sexual tendencies.

But I can see that that could be quite hard to do in terms of cognitive dissonance.

starcrossedseahorse · 21/12/2018 13:05

'het vanilla sex'...really? The way you phrase things...Confused

R0wantrees · 21/12/2018 13:03

This is why it’s essential to differentiate from non-harmful consensual sex play, and abuse

Raven The article by Jessicca Eaton, highlights how young people are being affected. Understanding what is perceived as 'non-harmfull' and 'consensual' requires nuance:

"In a study conducted in 2006, Fischer and Greitmeyer found that men who listened to sexually aggressive and violent lyrics were more likely to choose for women to suffer painful situations than the men who had listened to normal music lyrics in a controlled study. In a follow up study, men listening to misogynistic lyrics were more likely to subject women to ice-water-treatment than men who did not listen to the misogynistic lyrics.

However, its incomplete to argue that these lyrics and language only affect men and boys – the reality is that these lyrics, language, imagery and porn affects women and girls too. They are also absorbing these messages as normal, and as shown by the work on hypersexualisation of girls by the APA in 2007, girls and women normalise and accept these sexually violent behaviours because they have been taught by society that they are supposed to enjoy them.

Adding sexually violent lyrics to some of the bestselling songs in the world is a clear method of normalising male violence against women and girls.

What can we do about this?
Parents and Carers of children and young people

If you are a parent of an older child, there is absolutely no point in trying to protect them from these lyrics – they are everywhere! Instead, focus on bringing your children up to be critical thinkers and media-savvy. Teach them that everything they see in the media, music, advertising and news outlets are trying to manipulate them or sell something to them. Teach them clear and positive ways of talking about sex. Teach them to say ‘have sex with’ or ‘make love to’ or even ‘sleep with’. ANYTHING that isn’t negative or violent. Talk to them about the language – use the songs on the radio as an opportunity, a blessing in disguise and start to comment on the language. When something sexually aggressive or degrading comes on the TV, use co-viewing to start a debate or discussion about what you are seeing. Make a comment and ask their opinion. If you don’t teach your children about sex, the internet will. If you already watch a lot of porn, think about how different porn sex is to the real sex you’re having. Do you really want your sons or daughters thinking that porn sex is real? Do you really want your son choking teen girls? Do you really want your daughter to think that being forced to have anal is normal? If you don’t watch any porn and this blog has terrified the life out of you, have a bit of a search and see how quickly you come across violent porn. I bet it takes you less than 60 seconds of scrolling.

Professionals working with children and young people

If you are a professional, you can do absolutely everything I have listed for parents and you can also make it your mission to educate other professionals about the way language is changing to encourage the normalisation of sexual violence towards women and girls – especially as you may be working with young people you can influence through your direct work, counselling, youth work or in school sessions. I deliver porn workshops to children and trust me, they know WAY more about porn than you think. I learn something new about porn every time I talk to kids about porn. Don’t think that when you deliver your porn workshops in school, you will be shocking those teens – you will be talking to a large majority that have not only watched porn but have been significantly influenced by it. Seriously, I’ve taught teenage girls who have told me that they thought that having pubic hair was disgusting and weird because none of the women in porn have any. If you can’t face workshops about porn, build some on song lyrics and music videos – you will get all the same discussions. Teach other professionals, talk about the impact of porn, consider it in your line of work and if you can, talk to young people about porn and violence."

ravenlover · 21/12/2018 13:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Thingybob · 21/12/2018 13:02

ravenlover

There are likely to be others on here who are also survivors of child sexual abuse and maybe their personal experiences have lead them to a very different mindset to yours. I'm not saying that you are wrong and they are right, just that we all experience things differently and come to different conclusions.
Please take care of yourself Flowers

deepwatersolo · 21/12/2018 13:01

Ironically, from what I gather there are moves to shift paedophilia from the category of paraphilia to 'a normal form of sexual attraction'. Now that carries the risk of normalizing paedophilia.

www.thenewamerican.com/culture/family/item/16925-psychiatric-group-backtracks-on-pedophilia-classification

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