Enforcing girls' guilt about sexual assault

I'm coming to the conclusion that a lot of men think a sexual desire of men is disgusting

I think there's something to that, but it's not like men respect it when women don't desire men. A lot of men are very invested in attacking lesbians, and the existence of lesbian sexuality.

not have sexual relationships with men

I'm coming to the conclusion that a lot of men think a sexual desire of men is disgusting. It makes women weak, pitiable and vulnerable to men in a way no (straight) man would make himself. I think this is why men often react with victim blaming. Why would you make yourself willingly vulnerable to a man like that ? Men trust other men very little which is why they come over all protective of their daughters.

It’s not victim blaming to say that there are precautionary measures one can take to avoid becoming a victim.

Not have male relatives, not have male friends, not have sexual relationships with men, not live with men, not work with men. I think that covers the actual things that might reduce your chances of being raped. If your partner is a rapist, walking down dark alleys rather than being at home on your own sofa is probably safer.

And of course men can be taught not to rape. Happens in many cultures, some of which have been mentioned above. They are also taught TO rape by porn, abuse and violence at home, mass culture and misogyny.

Thanks tellme. I chose the words really deliberately so I can keep the message the same all their lives (but I will move on to enthusiastic consent when they are teenagers). I blame society for the fact I have to do it, but I still want to do my bit.

Gentlygently if every parent can do that with their sons then I think slowly things can start to change. I think what you say about not wanting your DD to be the victim is a normal thought and as parents it's heartbreaking to think it will be somebody else's daughter as rapists will rape

I have sons and I teach them not to rape. I teach them by saying as soon as they can toddle 'if it is someone else's body and they say no then you stop'. This moves on to 'if you think someone doesn't like it then you stop' when they are bigger.

However, whilst I think the link posted is absolutely disgraceful, and as a woman I don't want any woman to be raped, as a mother I am really sorry but sadly if I had to choose I would prefer anyone else was raped apart from my child. That is normal, isn't it? So I will also teach all my children not to walk home alone, careful of their drinks etc.

Sadly, none of these things stop rape, all they do is raise the odds that the rapist will rape someone other than you. They also work in the same way as wearing a St Christopher protects you when travelling, ie by magical thinking and cognitive bias.

You can't teach boys not to rape.

You can. I came on to post the link userschmoozer has. That project is producing really positive result. I wonder if we can expect a positive feedback loop as those boys age into the cohort wherebthey have their own children and pass on their own attitudes

Apologies Knitted I read some of your OP wrong and agree with lots of what you just said. My anger was more around the exercise as it's possibly one of the most obvious and unapologetic examples of victim blaming I've seen targeted at girls so young. And yet we skirt around the real problem as NAMALT.

But you can't teach somebody who chooses to be a rapist not to rape to a degree yes but there has to be another solution and not "Girls how you make sure you're not raped".

4 examples. OK.

1. Not be born female.
2. Have had the wit to invest in a high quality crystal ball well beforehand
3. Have purchased and carried a top of the range magic wand to magic her attacker away
4. Nothing.

Yeah but Rapey Bob already knows those 5 things. He chooses to ignore them. Because Rapey Bob has made up his mind that he is going to rape. No man has ever closed his eyes for a minute and when they opened them his penis had somehow forced it's way into somebody's vagina without his knowledge. There isn't 5 things for Rapey Bob because he has made the active decision to rape somebody. There are things girls can do to decrease their likelihood of being raped. There are maybe even a few things boys who don't rape can do to decrease the likelihood of girls being raped. But you can't teach somebody who chooses to be a rapist not to rape.

Exactly NothingonTelly. Whoever lives their lives will encounter situations that carry some risk, and it is absurd to expects women to always make the right decision.
When I was 18 I celebrated new year in the mountains, the idea was to go down with the sled in a group, in the end (1000 meter height difference) over a snowy road. Long story short, I had a fall out, decided to go it alone, earlier. It felt like a daunting task. So I was happy a car came along and asked, whether I wanted a ride down with them. 3 guys in their mid 20‘s. I sat myself in the backseat, beside one guy (2 were in front). He was drunk and became a bit touchy. The guy beside the driver also made funny comments. I thought that was it. Driver said ‚you know, Tom, don‘t you want to go down with the sled in front of us, we‘ll light your way. You don‘t mind Lending your sled?‘ Touchy Tom was elated, I agreed. So I had the back seat all for myself the whole, long way down. The last kilometer where the sled could not go Tom joined us again, apparently more clear headed. the driver brought me home directly, made sure I was safe in my parent‘s house, before they took off.

We all get into shitty situations, when upset, or with the head in the clouds. The primary lesson here is how the driver (whom I do not know and never met again, but think of every New Year’s Eve) acted.

Plus of course no-one is perfect.

Girls and women will walk down a dark alleyway, go out alone after dark, fail to notice a man is following them on the bus, not have the money for a cab home, take their eye off their drink for 30 seconds once in a while etc etc

It suggests that women and girls have to abide by a set of rules that is ever changing (these days with camera phones, when a woman gets upskirted or filmed without her knowledge there are smug people saying oh I ALWAYS check toilets for cameras / never wear a skirt), and many points are impossible for lots of women to adhere to. eg never walk alone after dark on quiet streets. It gets dark at about 5! And most people live on quiet streets...

And of course women and girls still get assaulted. Plus the root is not addressed > YOU didn't get attacked (which is great) so he went and attacked someone else (there will always be a more vulnerable victim available). And the idea that it was the woman's / girls fault as she didn't follow all the rules is at the forefront.

The press collude in this even when the woman has been murdered > reporting statements from the murderer without scare quotes in headlines "Victim was suspected of seeing another man!" Oh well then what did she expect...

The situation when women and girls are victims of men is not neutral. Society is not neutral. Society tends to blame the victim. This is why this stuff is so problematic.

Deepwatersolo nailed it. Until society changes and young men take responsibility for the fact that men rape I will still, even though it pisses me off that I have to, make sure my DD does what she can to stay safe. And as so many of you say, there is always that chance it may not be enough. And that make me very pissing angry.

Sorry for bad language

Racecardriver you won't get any argument that children and adults should all be taught around avoiding risky situations, not getting so drunk they don't know what's going on etc.

However, these are surprisingly rare, espcially given that men and boys are at high risk of being robbed / having violent incidents when out and about.

All too often they focus on sex offences committed against girls and women (subtext > by men) and do not mention anything else.

This is the reason that feminists (and lots of women generally) get fucked off.

IF these sorts of things had lots of risks > boy being sexually assaulted, girl getting her pocket picked, boy getting really drunk and not getting home OK then it would be less bothersome.

There is also the context around girls and women often not reporting assaults, feeling that they have brought it on themselves is part of this. Telling girls to think of 4 ways an imaginary girl could have avoided being assaulted is inviting them to think the girl in the story brought it on herself. Also, what does it tell the boys? It tells them that girls who "put themselves in harms way" or don't take the "right" actions are asking for assault. That's not particularly helpful, is it?

Oh ffs. In Afghanistan women fully hide under a piece of cloth, only move outside with a male relative and still manage to get sexually assaulted. What do they do wrong?
This is very, very limiting for women. At some point in my late 20‘s I decided to not give a f*. Go climbing and on climbing trips with whoever (of about my level) was available and a good match in the community. (My partner does not climb and trusts me, knows most of the people). I felt so liberated. (I prefer climbing with girls. But also camping out in the wild, only me and two other guys in some different country occurred, occasionally.)
Had I ever been assaulted, obviously the victim blaming would have known no bounds. And even though knowing better, who knows what would have stuck with me.
It is so absurd that society won‘t grant us this freedom, even though it is obvious that not even the most ridiculously conservative measures keep women safe, because it is not us doing the raping.

Apparently, it is hard to convince rapists not to rape, but, apart from teaching men not to rape, a conversation much more worthwhile and sane than ,what did the victim do wrong‘ would be ,what could I have done as a bystander (as her friend, as his friend, as a stranger...) in this situation‘.

Large number of men, I believe, who have raped, do not label it as such in their own heads.

Rapes which don't have accompanying extra violence, are perpetarted against a victim known to the rapist etc, much of society seems to struggle to see things like this as rape. Rape is a bad bad man who jumps out from behind a bush and attacks a "perfect" victim (very young or very old, virgin, etc) and gives her a good kicking as well.

If society can't see a lot of rapes as "rape rape" or very serious then why should the men who do it?

And of course things change. Rape within marriage was only outlawed in the early 90s. Before that it was a mans right to rape his wife and not seen as a crime in any way.

Of course things can change.

Knitted i absolutely disagree and that exercise could have instead read "State 5 things Rapey Bob could have done to avoid being a rapist". Men need called out on this and should be examining their behaviour from an early age.

It’s very poorly worded but teaching children how to avoid becoming victims of random violent crimes is very important (and has particular relevance to girls and sexual assault). Not teaching children not to walk through dark parks alone, not to leave drinks unattended etc is irresponsible. It’s not victim blaming to say that there are precautionary measures one can take to avoid becoming a victim. No one is saying x was raped because she left her drink unattended. She was raped because her rapist raped her. But she may have avoided being his victim had she not left her drink unattended.

Across Africa, girls are being taught self defence while boys are being taught empathy, and the result is a reduction in rape.

''After the six-week course, only 14.5% believed that a woman’s outfit was a sign of permission for sex and only 22.8% thought that “no” meant “maybe.”

Boys who had completed the program also were successful in stopping or preventing sexual assaults. Six months after the course had been completed, 47.7% of the boys had witnessed verbal sexual harassment, 47% had witnessed someone physically threatening a girl or woman, and 34.7% had witnessed a physical or sexual assault. Over 70% of those had successfully intervened to stop the abuse in each case.''

www.newtactics.org/tactic/reducing-rape-and-sexual-assault-through-education-adolescent-boys

Hold on, you said that girls and women should be educated and advised in ways to avoid being raped. But that they will be raped anyway. Which is it?

What i meant...but nothing said it better

Oh yes, most men know it's wrong to rape. That's why, in the aftermath of #metoo, all these poor beleaguered men were complaining that they just didn't know what was appropriate sexually anymore and that all these woman talking about rape, assault and sexual intimidation were so confusing.

So no, I don't think it's appropriate to be talking about educating girls to avoid rape. I think educating men and boys about what rape is and why they should be disgusted with their brothers over it seems like it should be prioritised.

"You can't teach boys not to rape."

Interested to know how you explain the different prevalence of rape in different countries around the world?

Also, this seems very down on boys. Surely you shouldn't be imlying that ALL boys are rapists?

"And even then rapes will still always happen"

Hold on, you said that girls and women should be educated and advised in ways to avoid being raped. But that they will be raped anyway. Which is it?

Is the idea that girls and women should be educated, and take action (usually in the form of restricting their behaviour) so that when they are raped no-one can say it was their own fault?

Your post is confused and I'd welcome more explanation.

knitted

You just said it yourself

Rapists gonna rape

I dont think anyone is saying that children shouldn't be taught about safety but from what I remember the question is what can she do to avoid assault