Conflation of Intersex Conditions and Transgender

Don’t have a lot to add OP, but I confess that when I read the Mermaids transcript, that was the part that shocked me most. That they openly implied that trans is effectively just another form of intersex, I felt sick. Intersex conditions are physical, complex and present from birth. There’s no compelling evidence that shows being trans is anything other than a psychological problem. Psychological problems may be equally serious and it’s possible there’s a biological basis, but there is no proof the two situations are remotely related.

I'm not sure how productive it is to discuss intersex conditions here, because frankly it's none of trans people's business.

However, sex development is the result of hormones, the main male ones are DHT & testosterone, if you lack DHT, for example, your genitals will appear female, however at puberty your body will be flooded with testosterone and you will develop a male gender identity.

What you can get in certain cases is that a person who for example lacks DHT or for some other reason was 'assigned female at birth' may become virilized and may appear more male or ambiguous following puberty and there is not a completely deterministic pathway as 'male' or 'female'

However in terms of intersex as a whole, the great majority are straightforwardly male or female.

People with ambiguous biological sex can be identified via biological testing - the goal of trans is to co-opt intersex to pretend that somehow everyone just might be 'intersex' in some way, and we couldn't possibly check or do any sort of testing, because the most important thing is to allow individuals with disorders of sexual development their freedom of choice rather than subject them to intrusive testing.

So from one side the intersex & trans causes can be seen as allied, as trans lobbyists want to make sex completely arbitrary which would suit people with intersex conditions who want to change their sex marker, which may indeed have been assigned based on incomplete information at birth, and hence the intersex people can do so with minimal worry. On the other hand, you end up with intersex being co-opted by a much larger cohort of people who simply prefer to present as male or female based on 'because I want to' rather than a biological condition.

Still, it seems that a significant number of people who are chromosomally one sex but present physically more like another, or equally like both, are distressed at having “male” or “female” on record as their sex.

Do you have any links? I've not been exposed to that.

But these people will have been raised as female and not known about being XY until puberty and not getting their period. I doubt there would be any desire to change their sex marker after finding out.

I think you’re probably right for many cases, but one thing to note is that with the rising popularity of non-invasive prenatal testing, this is being picked up on at or before birth. And that presents a conundrum for parents: the child is genetically male yet presents as female and is statistically most likely to grow up as female too. I personally had thought the German option since 2013 (I think) of simply not entering either sex was enough, and that there wasn’t the need to add a new category of “diverse”? Although the fact that it was an intersex person whose court application set the new category in motion suggests it maybe is important? I don’t know.

(It’s interesting because German is a language with clear male-female categories, eg a female doctor is the equivalent of “doctoress”, a teacher “teacheress”, conductor “conductoress” etc. I wonder whether there will be successful attempts to create a new suffix for those who are “diverse”.

I believe that chromosome testing would determine whether there was a Y sex chromosome, so there is no need to leave anything blank. Using a chromosome test to determine a baby's sex does not mean surgical intervention to give the appearance of that sex either. You can have boys and girls with ambiguous genitalia and leave them to grow up without interference
I didn’t mean to imply that knowing a baby’s sex would lead to surgical intervention to make that baby “match” that sex. Still, it seems that a significant number of people who are chromosomally one sex but present physically more like another, or equally like both, are distressed at having “male” or “female” on record as their sex. I do think that although gender identity is still at play here, and chromosomally it is more clear cut, this is a different case to the transgender one.

with extreme Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, someone would look externally just like a woman, yet would have testes internally

But these people will have been raised as female and not known about being XY until puberty and not getting their period. I doubt there would be any desire to change their sex marker after finding out.

parents are advised to leave the child alone. I can imagine it would be a relief in such cases as these to have the option of leaving the sex blank on the passport.

I believe that chromosome testing would determine whether there was a Y sex chromosome, so there is no need to leave anything blank. Using a chromosome test to determine a baby's sex does not mean surgical intervention to give the appearance of that sex either. You can have boys and girls with ambiguous genitalia and leave them to grow up without interference.

@AncientLights
I think there are some (rare) instances where a case may be so ambiguous that it is distressing to have only “male” or “female” as the options (emotionally: not talking about scientific definitions here). For instance, with extreme Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, someone would look externally just like a woman, yet would have testes internally (no uterus or ovaries) and be genetically/chromosomally male. Or with congenital adrenal hyperplasia, the sex organs may look ambiguous and rather than early operations to make them conform to either a “male” or a “female” appearance, which is mutilating and removes sensitive tissue, parents are advised to leave the child alone. I can imagine it would be a relief in such cases as these to have the option of leaving the sex blank on the passport.

thingybob Thanks for the link - - that is an excellent resource. Really clear, and from a group representing families affected by dsd conditions.

People who are not TRAs but who want to be inclusive and have just not been playing close attention to these debates often bring up "but, intersex" early on in conversation/thinking - so this is a great resource to help them avoid that pitfall.

I think intersex conditions are actively used by TRAs as a shield, but they are also drawn in naturally through cognitive dissonance. People know that the debate is fierce and assume it must be complex. When you tell them it's simple: "men are male, women are female, sex stereotypes are bad" they think there must be more to it, or else why would they, smart people that they are, not have seen it. So they cast around in their mind for some reason why it might be more complex and come back with "intersex" even though they don't really know anything about it.

deepwatersolo I find it hard to believe that people can lie so blatantly, but unfortunately a few months on Twitter has taught me that so many people are so willing to lie. How has the trans movement garnered so much support, so so quickly?!

I can't wait for it to crumble, but how many people's lives will have been ruined by doctors, parents, teachers, politicians telling children they can change sex and performing surgery on innocent children who are confused?

Note: the doctor‘s certificate (or sworn statement) that certifies your intersex condition is necessary for getting the ‚third sex‘ into your document.
Getting your documents changed from male to female has long been possible, after SRS. In the early 2000‘s the right was won in the courts to change your sex without SRS (I doubt the public is aware) but with doctor‘s certificate or such (In Austria the bar is higher than in Germany).

The DSD families submission is brilliant and demonstrates why this issue needs to be separated from LGBT. It seems bizarre enough that identity issues are conflated with sexuality to (as we've seen) the detriment of lesbians in particular, but that a medical condition should also be crow-barred in, is nuts. Except, of course, we know why and for whose benefit!

During the first census session, Tim Hopkins said that they "do not represent the intersex community" and his project was in infancy. Now, it appears, equality network receives £45k per annum for intersex project in Scotland. That's a lot for him not to represent the 12 babies per annum born in Scotland!

It indeed looks like [puts tinfoilhat on head] different arguments are used for different cultures in order to arrive at one outcome - convergent engineering

Yes. I think so too.
Top down social engineering

Oh, and because the German language originally has one word for sex and gender, namely ‚Geschlecht‘, activists now get to argue that the currently prescribed Doctor‘s certificate (or sworn statement that you are intersex) is too narrow because the ‚Geschlecht‘ (sex) has biological and social components.

Until recently they made this big song and dance about ‚gender‘ as this new word that was introduced to study the societal implications of being a woman vs. a man.
Suddenly it is all shifting towards ,Geschlecht‘ (sex) again, which has biological and social components. And obviously many biological variations that cannot yet be diagnosed blablabla intersex and trans.

Of course the TRAs are bullshitting, Scamander. But why is that bullshit not challenged, but politicians and medical experts go along with it? (The Maria Catt blogpost that is also discussed in a thread here even indicates professionals do not want some of the in-group discussions aired to the wider public, presumably because it could hurt the cause. Insane.)
And why are intersex people apparently fine with getting their issues conflated with trans issues in the German speaking world?

This is madness, astroturfed madness.

As the OP of the 'There are 6 different sexes?' thread, can I just point out that I KNOW there are 6 different sexes.

When TRAs threw that line at me and I read the information linked, I queried why they would conflate intersex with transgenderism, as that was what the article seemed to be discussing (with my very limited understanding of science) only to be told that OBVIOUSLY they weren't talking about intersex conditions in that article and how thick was I?

My thread was simply to get confirmation that the article WAS discussing intersex conditions and that the TRAs were talking out their arse, as per usual.

TinfoilHAT on head!

Yeah WeRiseUp, you have a point, it is obvious to me. But at the same time it sounds so crazy, I don‘t believe my lying eyes or something.

I have broached this subject before on this board. It indeed looks like [puts tinfoilhat on head] different arguments are used for different cultures in order to arrive at one outcome - convergent engineering or so.

Its not so much putting on a tinfoil hat as taking out the ear plugs, taking off the blindfold and saying what you see.

Thingybob In the German speaking world intersex people seem to willingly act as shields for the trans agenda (at least this is my impression).
In Germany and Austria intersex individuals sued in order to get the third sex option for passports/documents.
This was followed by articles (several, in both countries in media analogous to BBC and Guardian) about how this is important, but too narrow, as there are many intersex conditions that cannot yet be diagnosed (Ladybrain anyone?) leaving many inter and trans people in the cold.
I was particularly surprised about an article about unisex loos in an Austrian newspaper as this grand measure of inclusivity for intersex people (unfailingly, simewhere in the article they will suddenly slip in ‚inter and trans) . The intersex person who won the 3rd sex right for Austria was interviewed and said they were often admonished and scolded in toilets for ‚using the wrong one‘ (something I find hard to imagine, but ok). Notably the person is active in some (possibly the) organization for intersex people in Austria, it looks like the organization supports this approach.

I have broached this subject before on this board. It indeed looks like [puts tinfoilhead on head] different arguments are used for different cultures in order to arrive at one outcome - convergent engineering or so.

Race, genetically, isn’t a concrete thing. There are more differences within what we call racial groups than between them. But one can be a mix of what we call those racial groups.

You can’t be halfway. No human has ever been documented to produce sperm and eggs in the same individual.

And anyway, even if you could, what relevance would it have to transgender? None. Because every single disorder of sexual development is a physical medical issue with observable cause.

For the same reason that when people are asked to say what their race is there is an option "Mixed".

In as much as race is ‘real’ (unlike sex, it is a social construct) it would be possible to be ‘mixed’ if your parents were of different races.

That’s not how intersex works though. Having biological parents of different sexes is pretty much the default.

so why should they have 'intersex' on passports instead of female/male?

They shouldn’t imo. In some countries like Germany and Austria the TRA argument that men should be allowed in single sex spaces uses intersex conditions as a wedge much more than the Uk, there was a poster taking about t on ather threadcrecently (can’t remember which one but I think language was the main focus.)

I'm still puzzled by that stumbledin. From what I've read of intersex people, or DSD people I should say, they don't want to stand out and draw attention to themselves. Like most of us, they just want a normal life and to be treated as a normal human being. Still, I don't suppose they'd have to take up the option offered of stating 'intersex' on their passport.

AncientLights

For the same reason that when people are asked to say what their race is there is an option "Mixed".

ie it is about the biological reality not about some concept in someone's head.