Is it really all that bad?

Zutt, as I suggested the multi faceted handicap system should have been the starting point for discussion with the authorities and not the worthless testosterone limits they actually introduced.

You could pose both possibilities for how it might work, but handicap usually involves disadvantaging the minority number of participants in a way that makes their results not clearly bound to be superior to the majority.

Doing it the way round that you suggest might indeed be feasible but would presumably involve handicapping every participant bar one in the competition.

Or perhaps giving that lone participant a head start rather than a handicap.

You could even do it in a way that allowed women to enter men's events if they felt like challenging themselves that way as part of training for their own event.

So could be seen as having that benefit too, whereas the present method has nothing good about it.

There are many conditions which result in a person's sporting capacity being reduced following some sort of medical interventions. Happens all the time.

Very true.

Why not put a handicap system in place in the male sports and teams. That way transpeople get to participate in sports and women's sport remains as it is.

Indeed. Some people believe that the Olympics and Paralympics should be merged. Whatever happens there should remain a female single-sex category with strictly no sex hormones or other doping which gives unfair advantages, so that women can compete fairly and achieve amazing things with their natural bodies - sort of what athletic competition is supposed to be about.

This has all become a game sadly. Many have suggested that sexual dominance plays a big part in modern ideology. I believe that is indeed true. Therefore when women get so angry and upset (rightly so) with the situation it send out the wrong message.... the message that women are scared and worried for their safety. When someone says "I want to dominate you" and what they are hearing back is "please dont you're scaring me" is that not a reinforcement ? When women send out the message "we object to the EA and GRC because women weren't consulted and we didn't give permission " then once again what is heard is that men were able to dominate and women were submissive.

Women's ability to name male-pattern abuse, coercive control and DV is key to identifying the cause. The cause being solely with and the responsibility of the invidual doing it.
Women who are aware of abusive power being directed at them must never be prevented from naming the issue either by implicit or explicit suggestions.

See current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

& article
thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2017/11/50-shades-of-gaslighting-the-disturbing-signs-an-abuser-is-twisting-your-reality/

But the starting point otherwise still should very obviously have been a handicap system in the same way as happens with pros and amateurs competing. The disparity is at least as great

Why not put a handicap system in place in the male sports and teams. That way transpeople get to participate in sports and women's sport remains as it is.

The sports qualifications for trans women are a joke. They are not remotely fair. And potentially dangerous in some sports.

If they were attempting to find a fair way to allow trans women to compete as women the bare minimum would be far beyond what happens now. Arguably there may be no fair minimum and safety should always be the driving factor. If there is any risk of harm - exclude.

But the starting point otherwise still should very obviously have been a handicap system in the same way as happens with pros and amateurs competing. The disparity is at least as great

So your start point is to minimise the trans woman advantage by taking extensive measures across a series of factors which all individually are going to give an edge. Testosterone levels is only one of several. You would also have to measure lung capacity v Female norm, muscle mass, etc. Whatever sports medics say would give an advantage you score against. Combine them all into a built in handicap they must start under.

As a long term post GRS transsexual myself I would not have expected anything less than this as the starting point of any discussion

The starting and ending point in spot should be that humans can't change sex. Males should not ever be competing against girls and women unless in sports which are mixed sex.

Males who have diagnosed dysphoria, take hormone blockers, cross sex hormones and or have surgery do not become female.

There are many conditions which result in a person's sporting capacity being reduced following some sort of medical interventions. Happens all the time.

He obviously is going to have a different perspective than a woman but he’s not some over-privileged walking male stereotype.

Maybe not, and as you say lots of women don't see a problem.

But you did say he is very clued up about the law and the EA. Which is great, but if he doesn't understand about safeguarding and he has no experience of why women and girls need sex segregated spaces, his doesn't have the full picture.

And that's the problem. Very few people in position of authority seem to have the full picture, and don't want to or don't see the need to balance the rights of the individual with the rights of safeguarding when it comes to trans issues.

I think I’m going to log out of Mumsnet for a few days.

Have a lovely Christmas and no worries!

No, really, thank you, dear, for not reading any of my subsequent posts and just going right into patronising mode.

It was a joke parodying what transactivists say.

Sorry! Should have been clearer.

(That was advice for OP and her friend!)

The short answer is: Yes, it is that bad. Actually, it's worse. Educate yourself, dear.

WeRiseUp

Nailed it.

Women have had our rights taken away by the sleight of hand and emotional manipulation perpetrated by a handful of extremely selfish, uncaring, non-empathetic transactivists with new links to perpetrators of vouyerism, rape and child abuse emerging every five seconds.

The manipulation and lies that got us here need to be exposed and women's hard won rights which are lost must be reinstated.

No, we shouldn’t “have to” accept this. The law needs to be changed to protect women’s rights, We need to lobby, email, talk about this with our friends and colleagues, re-educate those brainwashed by the trans cult if need be.
Accepting a small cohort inevitably means accepting all those under the transgender umbrella. No thanks, third space/ third gender ( or however many genders you care to imagine) but only two sexes.

Especially when there is no way of knowing that the person actually has a grc.

And you're not allowed to ask.

Is that really the big issue though ? Under 4000 people in nearly 15 years have a GRC and obviously there will be those within that who have left the country or died so what are we talking.....

I'm not sure how much you know about the GRA and EA. But it's not just 4000 people. Lots of transgender people, like Debbie Hayton and Jane Fae, talk about not needing a GRC to access women's spaces and just rely on the EA and basically not being challenged.

Also, when faced with a male transperson in what is expected to be a female only space, a grc may not make a vulnerable woman or girl feel secure. Especially when there is no way of knowing that the person actually has a grc.

When someone says "I want to dominate you" and what they are hearing back is "please dont you're scaring me" is that not a reinforcement ? When women send out the message "we object to the EA and GRC because women weren't consulted and we didn't give permission " then once again what is heard is that men were able to dominate and women were submissive.

So, what, women who're scared just stiff upper lip their way through it, and that will make the bullies playing domination games back off? All evidence points to that's a pretty terrible strategy.

Indeed the testosterone levels are so ludicrous they are many times higher than what most TS who have had GRS routinely achieve. It is about 20 times my own level of T, let alone any actual women's levels. Pretty obviously that alone shows this as nonsense and pretty obviously there is no fairness at all for women here.

It's laughable, isn't it? "Well, I mean, it's lower than in most men, so who cares if it's exponentially higher than the female norm?"

And that's before we even get into all the other physical advantages that we're supposed to ignore, because look, testosterone slightly lower than most men!

As to the second point see my whole point - this is about being smarter and not sending out a message that reinforces that men are being dominating.

Why is it smart to not mention when men are being dominating?

Are we not saying the same thing essentially ?

No. We aren't. You're saying laws are immutable. I'm saying if the current law fails to protect women, we should campaign and lobby so that it does (especially at a time when the current law is under review).

You also seem to be saying that accurately describing male behaviour and exercise of privilege is a bad idea. Which is.... odd?

Its unworkable as you cannot legally ask a man if he has a GRC or not, so it opens them up to all men. Its already dangerous to challenge men in public which is why the majority of women don't.

Stop worrying about the message women are sending out, and worry about what women need to say.
Women only spaces and services are for women.

Yes, we may need to grandfather rights given to current GRC holders, but that's all.

Are we not saying the same thing essentially ?

As I said we need to look at how we educate children against gender stereotyping and increase medicalisation of TS. I see the number of people with a GRC decreasing in the future to even less than the 300 a year it is now.

I do think though we have to, however reluctantly, accept a certain number of TS people who already have transitioned.

*stop linking genitalia to our likes and dislikes

concede access to TS people as per EA and GRC

What the actual fucking fuck?

Never.*

You have taken individual sentences out of a larger response. You omit my reasons and arguments.

On the first thing do you really agree that you can equate contents of knickers to social activities and preferences ? You're a woman so you can't play football, be an engineer, enjoy science etc.. these stereotypes have held people back for centuries. It is these stereotypes that create transgender. You're a girl who likes football....oh then you're trans. If there were no stereotypes you can't be trans because you aren't breaking a stereotype!

As to the second point see my whole point - this is about being smarter and not sending out a message that reinforces that men are being dominating. The EA is already in place and reality is that at this time if you refuse access to a TS person you would be the one in trouble. Not saying it's right or wrong just that's how it us. I do think we need to accept that for now. There are simply too many battles to fight and we can't fight them all at once.