Third Spaces

Beagadorsrock

"As far as I understood from some twitter exchange, randomers ... don't want them because they would be..."

• outing .. not if they are also being used by natal men and women, e.g. they are not trans spaces they are not non-binary spaces, they are anyone spaces.
• a potential for bullying for being 'different' - again if lots of others were using them this should not apply

"...basically third spaces are only good for people who are secure in their identity and not for those who have latched onto 'trans'/non-binary / rainbow as a way of reacting to bullying for being 'different', as they see it as undermining the cover story"

But a great many trans people are now 'out'. They have twitter with their trans status proudly on it.

If they do not want to be out, they can use third spaces along with all the other natal males and females and would be in the same place as everyone else.

"Accessible provision is based on need, but for many the need seems to be not to be singled out." I think lots of natal women and men would use third spaces. I would certainly be a fan. I can't imagine many men relish going into male loos so unisex/gender neutral single cubicals could be very popular.

To be honest me too.
I feel sorry for victims of bullying of course, but do not feel the need for a type of systematic protection for victims of bullying that doesn't exclude the bullies themselves, and moreover doesn't consider at all the interests of existing users (basically instituting humanshieldom for human females).
The solution is clearly to normalise 'different' by giving it its own, special third space, on the one hand, and to deal with bullying separately. But I can see that it is my policy choice.
It's pretty much the anti-vax stuff again: some people selfishly want to avoid what they think is an evil (we know it isn't but it makes them feel good to think it is and they're specially smart for knowing that) and not give a fig for the well-being of all the other people who could be catching and suffering from the illness. AND that's why I have a whole bucketful of dislike for (some of) them.

Our safety as women is more important than someone else's insecurity about their (chosen) 'identity'.

Quite. It’s not a complex ethical dilemma between two equally valid points of view, it’s the health and safety of 50% of the population vs the psychic discomfort of < 1%.

Sorry but that is where I would draw the line and start to get more than a little bit pissed off.
Our safety as women is more important than someone else's insecurity about their (chosen) 'identity'.

As far as I understood from some twitter exchange, randomers (I can't really speak for the authenticity of whoever was writing, now, can I) don't want them because they would be

• outing (ie, they want to be seen as women or men, and they want the camouflage to work)
• a potential for bullying for being 'different'
• (for the woman-facers: easily criticised as superficially a Jim Crow situation)

So even when discounting the validation/narcissistic tendencies of some, basically third spaces are only good for people who are secure in their identity and not for those who have latched onto 'trans'/non-binary / rainbow as a way of reacting to bullying for being 'different', as they see it as undermining the cover story

Accessible provision is based on need, but for many the need seems to be not to be singled out. As in many cases, there isn't just one magic solution. There are many different and contrasting people and rationales in the TG 'umbrella'. It has to be a policy choice, and of course it MUST consider and ACCOMMODATE women first, rather than run roughshod over them

Yes i missed that as well maverick

Im the same as italian, 3rd spaces in conjunction with male and female only

Sorry

yet we don;t insist that these places have big gaps at the top and bottom of doors and we don;t hear of people always being thrown out of them for having sex in them!

MaverickSnoopy

"My sister who is pro self id and who was raped a few years ago says she is terrified of 3rd spaces. She says she is worried a man could push her into a cubicle and rape her without anyone knowing."

I am so sorry to hear about what happened to your sister.

Just to clarify my position, I am in favour of third spaces, which would always be in conjunction with Female and male single sex spaces, so any female could use the female only if they wish to.

If we only have a 'third' space available it would not be a genuine third space, it would be the only option, which I am not advocating for.

"Conversely I (who has also been raped) am terrified of the male sex in my female only space for the same reason. Not everyone is going to be happy with the outcome." Again, I am so sorry for your situation. We really do need to keep women's needs front and centre for female only spaces, and making provision for everyone else should help this, I hope.

In terms of validation any person who uses a third space can feel confident they are just as important as anyone else, it is space for all, and if these spaces were used by males and females, presumably everyone can feel that others who do identify the way they do, are there. That seems significant.

I know some people may be using the toilets for validation but I do think there is more to it.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF "People just need to use the space for their sex, anything else is indulgence IMHO." You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but the issue won't go away. There will be people not feeling able to use loos, holding it in, not going out, etc, we need to find solutions. Not everyone will be happy but if we can provide for most people that would be good.

PainInTheEar at "Thu 20-Dec-18 12:53:20"

"So in an ideal situation there would be:..." etc, yes, ...

Women's loos/spaces
Men's loos/spaces
Third spaces

....that would be good.

starcrossedseahorse "It would have the happy outcome of potentially keeping transmen safer and they are a group we seldom hear from." 100%

I do not understand the argument about people having sex in toilets! Disabled toilets don;t have massive gaps at the bottom of the door, neither do broom cupboards, yet we don;t insist that these places have big gaps at the top and bottom of doors!

I wonder if there is a positive campaign that could frame this?

Like 'breastfeeding friendly businesses'

e.g. The Mayor of London and several London boroughs have launched a Women's Safety at Night scheme for bars and clubs: www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/pledge-to-improve-womens-safety-at-night

Its principles include one on design

Empower women with the correct safety information and clear guidance to confidently use all public spaces

Ensure that planning and the built environment factor in and support women’s safety at night, recognising good practice and existing campaigns across London and broaden them to cover all public spaces

This would need to include design of facilities which ensure safety when using the toilets both for transwomen and women.

Men's loos/spaces - just me

Good typo

Agree OP. This covers biological reality and gender identity so is provision of privacy, dignity and safety for all. What is there for anyone to complain about with this model ....?

Not going to happen. It’s about validation, not safety. Anything less than full access to women’s spaces is an admission TWANW.

When a male comes out at work, say in an office or academic environment, they know perfectly well they will be safe in the male toilets alongside their male colleagues; they would, quite rightly, have HR firmly on their side were any unpleasantness to occur.

So why do many choose to use the ladies.....?

Tbh, I have little sympathy for any transperson given that situation. They are in no danger.

I think that you make good points Pain. The tsunami of hate which would befall anyone in the public eye pushing for a third space would certainly be an eye opener for your average person in the street.

Regarding the lack of validation. What about biological women who want to be respected as biological women. Where is their validation? At the bottom of the list as always?

I think third spaces make all kind of sense.

I know there has been some pushback on this from disabled people, but i think in many cases this will mean the accessible toilets/ changing etc.. - already you see many toilets with the sign 'not all disabilities are visible' etc... There might also be unisex, single occupancy spaces in addition to wheelchair accessible cubicles (+ baby changing etc...) - it all depends on the size of the building/number of users.

I don't think can specify for every situation but it is rather you need to have facilities so that: 1) women have privacy 2) men have privacy 3) people who don't feel comfortable in single sex space of their own sex have privacy 4) a space that disabled people can access.

I guess in places like small pubs and restaurants where they currently have 2 single occupancy toilets- one male and one female, this might need to change to 2 unisex, rather than require them to have 3 separate rooms, but I don't think unisex cubicle toilets are a good idea (especially where they have the 'gents' and 'unisex' option )

Aspie I think that you are correct.

Not going to happen. It’s about validation, not safety. Anything less than full access to women’s spaces is an admission TWANW.

Selling it to the likes of Madigan et al who just want female adulation and validation will be the hard part. They care nothing for our boundaries or safety and just want in to our spaces regardless of who else has to then be allowed in.

Spartacus I am inclined to agree but if a third space could be introduced then I do think that many transpeople would happily use them. It would have the happy outcome of potentially keeping transmen safer and they are a group we seldom hear from.

The vile male predators who still try to push to get in the women's loos and ignore our boundaries would become instantly identifiable and would get no sympathy because there is a space set aside for them.

I think it could work.