Third Spaces

How could a third space be labelled so as to prevent the assumption that use of the third space is outing?

Most people aren’t fooled for a second. It’s not like being gay where you can be surprised to learn someone is homosexual. Every transwoman is ‘out’ by virtue of being instantly recognisable as Male.

Who wants third spaces? Do any trans-identifying people want them? Do any non-binary people want them? Do any gender-fluid people want them? Or do they all actually want to use the single-sex space that they feel fits their identity on that day?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the voices arguing the loudest for third spaces are those of women. Women socialised to 'be nice'. Women socialised to find the best solution to keep everyone happy. Women socialised to put themselves last.

We do need third spaces.

I can't upload a photo, but the public toilets in Frome's Market Yard are pretty good I think.

The block is brick built and nice to look at (not been in). 24 hour access. From left to right (5 doors in a long block, all opening onto the car park)

1. Door with what I think is an all/either gender person ie the half dress-half trousers symbol (I took a pic but was too far away to see and the pic is a bit blurry), and a sign saying 'urinals'. Multiple urinals I am guessing.
2. Single cubicle, woman symbol, man symbol, changing table symbol and disabled symbol. I think this is a Changing Places room.
3. Single cubicle, woman symbol, man symbol, baby symbol, changing table symbol.
4. Single cubicle saying WC, unisex, man and woman symbols.
5. Last cubicle which says WC Ladies, woman symbol.

So women have the choice of 3 cubicles plus the disabled cubicle if applicable.

Men have the urinals plus a unisex WC. Men won't be sharing the urinals with transmen as biology prevents that - unless surgery does allow it?

Non-binary people can use the unisex WC if they don't want use the men's urinals/women's WC.

Transpeople of either sex have a unisex WC cubicle, or urinals as may suit some TW, or the female WC for transmen that wish to use it (seems unlikely)

The unisex WC is something my DH would use over urinals any day, even for a pee.

And importantly there is a dedicated women only WC, which respects women's needs and somewhat allays fears of stealth cameras and men peeing on the seat and floor.

Doesn't this set up cover all reasonable needs within reasonable constraints (space and budget etc)? Like you say PainInTheEar, what would be the objections to this amount of thought and effort to provide, and how would they go down?

I suspect many women who in theory insist they're chilled would find in reality they're not quite as laid back as their theories

This.

How could a third space be labelled so as to prevent the assumption that use of the third space is outing?

Mixed sex, or gender neutral? Since many women are lining up to say how very cool they are with sharing mixed sex facilities and many will just use whatever facilities are free, particularly if they're fully enclosed cubicles, they wouldn't in practice be outing in any way. It's another straw man. If however it becomes noticed that the now smaller female sex specific provision is crowded and that many women will only use that space, it kind of makes the point that sex segregated facilities are necessary. I suspect many women who in theory insist they're chilled would find in reality they're not quite as laid back as their theories.

Some transwomen are or feel at risk because of being trans. Even today, many gay people don’t want everyone to know they are gay. How could a third space be labelled so as to prevent the assumption that use of the third space is outing?

Yes, the cheapest easiest option is to force women to shut up and give up.

Third spaces are the only sensible way to deal with this in a way that equally respects everyone concerned, but won't be accepted as the bottom line is about forcing people to conform to the lie and pretence that someone is of the sex they say they are.

You'll see plenty of posts from trans people stating that they will use the facility they want to anyway, and you can't check on the door, and ooh what about transmen who look really male - all the usual 'no boundaries allowed' stuff that confirms utter disrespect for women underlies this all. This is fundamentally about removing the right of biological women to have anywhere remaining that is about their biological definition where men can't go.

They aren't being used because the cost of defending any court action brought by TRAs against the organisation could be prohibitive, the way GRA and EA are unclear on this subject and contradict each other mean outcome is not guaranteed one way or the other, and the organisation would likely fear poor publicity. Cheaper just to pander to the demands of TRAs.

I know the EA makes legal exceptions but how often are these exceptions invoked? If they aren’t being used in prisons and rape crisis centres then where are they being used?

At the moment though, the Equalities Act allows for people of the opposite sex but with a GRC or the intention of getting a GRC to use spaces that don't align with their actual sex. That is the current law.

The EA allows for trans people to be barred from services provided to people of the sex that they identify as, so long as it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. An example of a legitimate aim is the health, safety and welfare of individuals. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/what-are-the-different-types-of-discrimination/justifying-discrimination/

Italiangreyhound

The third point? during those Twitter exchanges I had people say, TWAW therefore to offer them a separate space is akin to the 'separate but equal' scenarios of the Jim Crow Southern US laws (spaces for whites/spaces for blacks).
That is an argument that would only be valid if :

• TW were W (I dispute this)
• and TW versus old-style women were exactly the same as Black women versus White women.

That's why I put it in brackets: it's the TWAW argument, which piggybacks on other historical struggles. All sorts of wrong.

I merely put down here the arguments I have seen against 3rd spaces. I do not agree with them!

Yes you do Jelly. Unisex spaces are needed for biological males who deny their sex. Pandering to their self belief that they can magically change sex places women at risk from predatory biological males.

A lot of companies won’t be willing to splash out on third spaces as they perceive the massive sudden increase in trans-identifying people as an ephemeral phenomena and don’t want to be lumbered with something that is going to be as popular as Tamagotchi five years from now.

You don't need mixed-sex spaces if single sex spaces are available.

It sounds wonderful, but unfortunately the very ones that will make females feel unsafe are thoses that are screaming TWAW, so they will still walk into the women’s spaces. The decent, genuine transsexuals will use the mixed sex toilets because they respect the feelings of women. Ironically the males that some of us would have been comfortable sharing with are the ones that respect us enough to leave us to our female spaces.

Third spaces will be a disaster. They will result in removal of single-sex spaces. It has already happened, in the form of unisex 'changing villages' in sports centres.

Third spaces may not validate trans people's 'gender identity', but they still validate the concept of gender identity and the nonsense that if you are male you can be anything other than man or boy.