A Trans Woman Was Asked To Leave The Women's Changing Room At A PureGym

I got a commented deleted by MNHQ for saying this person actively wants to be in the room where women are changing.

But - they were offered a third space and refused it. What other conclusion is there, than "this person actively wants to be in the room where women are changing?" We know it's not just a question of their safety, it's because they want to be in the women's changing rooms. I'm trying to find a different way to phrase it that's not offensive and uncivil, but I can't, because it's simply a fact, and apparently this fact in itself is offensive and uncivil.

What I wrote was absolutely factual. Facts that make trans people look bad are still facts. This person actively wants to be in the space where women change their clothes, regardless of whether women are uncomfortable with it.

If this continues I can see a move to a women’s only gyms.

I go to one at the moment, men have arrived & asked to join but sent on their way. The owners rationale is that women have different bodies & need to train in different ways to men.

Current case in New Zealand, the male born person has presumably the same level of 'rights' accorded by the GRC in UK.

There has been comment in NZ about how many other gyms were in a small radius.

"Wellingtonian Penelopy Mansell, who is transgender, was recently declined membership by a women's gym despite her birth certificate stating she is a woman.

Mansell was after a WINZ quote at Revive Fitness and the gym happened to be close to where she was living, but when she inquired about joining she was asked about her gender.

"She remained silent for a moment and then said, 'I'm sorry dear but I'm going to have to ask you this question, are you transgendered?'" Mansell said.

"She stated that it was the gym's policy not to let any person into the gym until they've had surgery."

"I informed her it's not possible in New Zealand [as] there's a 30 to 40 year waiting list for surgery, so I'd be 89."

Mansell showed the staff her birth certificate, which states she is female, but that wasn't enough.

Certificates are only changed if the person has undergone surgery or in Penny's case medical or hormonal treatment.

Felix Desmarais, a writer who covers local trans-discrimination said the gym does not need to be asking about surgery.

"I'm sure they don't check every other woman's pants situation," he said.

The gym apologised to Mansell a week later but Desmarais said it's hard to lay too much blame with the owners.

"They obviously made a mistake, but it's pretty hard to blame them when the government isn't taking any leadership on trans-issues themselves," he said." (continues)

www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/most-read-wellington-transgender-woman-denied-membership-female-gym-opens-up-q?variant=tb_v_1

recent thread re 'Trans Facts'
(extract)
"MYTH Transwomen have surgery to transition.
REALITY 80-95% of males who identify as transgender keep their penis. Source: Sex and Gender Ethics Society, from evidence given to MPs at the Women and Equalities Select Committee inquiry in 2015.
sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3448982-Trans-Fact-Checker?pg=2

why women (adult human females) might wish or need single sex spaces seems never acknowledged. By those males intent on exercising what they believe are their 'rights' to access them , those advocating for them to access them, or many of those reporting

                     <strong>safety, dignity & privacy</strong>

BettyDuMonde
Gym’s and pools have been targets for voyeurs for as long as they’ve been in operation - they can’t afford to be totally accepting and inclusive of absolutely everyone and their self professed identities, because safeguarding is paramount.

So much this.

I'm sure it's possible create single cubicles with showers inside them as an alternative to communal showers. It really isn't rocket science to provide alternatives to using communal facilities or anyone having to feel unsafe or uncomfortable.

All this talk of third spaces frustrates me.
Is it so outlandish to have mixed spaces and women only ( using EA exceptions to mean WOMAN only) .
Its always women that have to concede it really pisses me off.

Disabled accessible spaces need to be removed from that discussion its a separate issue. Disabled people need them and are entitled to them.

Its clear Sarah in this Pure Gym case wants to bother and intimidate women. Don't we have a word for those that want to bother and intimidate women. ????

No need for transpeople to share, create a single cubicle space. In any case what is the issue with transwomen sharing with transmen, are they transphobic ?

The discussions I've seen have always been to create single, whole floor to ceiling room cubicles, with sinks inside them, like disabled toilets but without the need to make them wheelchair accessible. So safe, private, dignified, regardless of TW, TM, M, F, NB or frostgendered.

That doesn't work for all settings, though.

I go to the gym regularly and shower afterwards. Even floor-to-ceiling cubicles for changing wouldn't prevent me having to walk naked-except-for-a-towel through a communal area to the showers and back.

As far as I am concerned I only recognise dysphoric, diagnosed TS people and if you look at the number of GRCs being issued in the past 10 years its under 400 a year. We are looking at a tiny tiny number.

I mean this in the nicest way, but the definitions in your head aren't the definitions woman are having to deal with. There are lots of male transpeople who don't have GRC and/or gender dysphoria who use women's spaces.

It would have to be third and fourth spaces though. Would it be right for transmen and transwomen to share spaces?

The discussions I've seen have always been to create single, whole floor to ceiling room cubicles, with sinks inside them, like disabled toilets but without the need to make them wheelchair accessible. So safe, private, dignified, regardless of TW, TM, M, F, NB or frostgendered.

The real alternative is that women shut up and put up, and wait to be told on where the government put the line (this year, Stonewall will then work HARD on moving it) on which males use women's spaces. No, not going along with that one. There are real issues of safety, privacy and dignity, they have to be met, but women just getting used to absorbing anyone who feels like it with any motives into their spaces fixes nothing, it just makes the problem affect 52% of the population instead of less than 1%.

Cost - I suspect the government will be desperate to throw money at any solution now they realise what a mess they've made and how the consultation is going. And women are pretty powerful at fundraising.

No, third spaces aren't wanted. What is wanted for women to just shut up and get their clothes off, and stop acting like they should have a say in it.

Third spaces now need to be created, properly designed to accommodate people who for whatever reason prefer not to use shared facilities with their own sex.

It would have to be third and fourth spaces though. Would it be right for transmen and transwomen to share spaces ?

Whilst it certainly is a solution I dont think the numbers are there to justify it. As far as I am concerned I only recognise dysphoric, diagnosed TS people and if you look at the number of GRCs being issued in the past 10 years its under 400 a year. We are looking at a tiny tiny number.

Given the strong influence of fetishism involved in TG at this time, the TGs arent going to use a third space because it doesnt serve there purpose!

I suspect what will actually happen is that as women begin to refuse, in large numbers, to use public shared provision, those third spaces will take over and those whole room cubicles will be used by them. The shared women's accommodation will become by default the mixed sex/ gender neutral space.

Which will piss off the TRA lobby no end, as the whole point is not allowing women to escape demonstrating public submission to their superiors.

I DONT beleive that putting penises into womens changing areas is appropriate. I also recognise though that for a transsexual person undergoing transition the male facilities is a dangerous place to be.

And that's absolutely unacceptable, no one should ever have to be in a space where they are uncomfortable, at risk of embarrassment or intimidation never mind afraid for their safety. I just believe that is not an either/or situation, where one group must suffer for the sake of the other.

Third spaces now need to be created, properly designed to accommodate people who for whatever reason prefer not to use shared facilities with their own sex. Bring on the campaign for this, I worked with teams pushing through the creation of disabled spaces and it won't take that long to achieve.

As I've said before, this is two separate fronts:
For women, the right to state and have respected the very reasonable belief that it is impossible to change sex, and therefore to change in front of a male bodied person is a breach of privacy, dignity and boundaries, regardless of how that person chooses to view themselves
For transsexual people, the right to separate and recognise the needs of people who have lifelong severe dysphoria and SRS as different from others under the (massive) stonewall umbrella.

If you “go without” be the catalyst to campaign for the “formal body “ to educate men to welcome other gender non conforming men in their spaces.

When the National Lottery give £500,000 to teach the opposite to Mermaids and Stonewall are making millions what change do I have ?

All I would do is ended up in an early grave.

Society as a whole needs to be open to change but right now the fetishistic / AGP transgender brigade are calling the shots.

maybe the person in question thought, I see myself as a woman, I dress as a woman, I have long hair, wear make up, and take tablets to make said penis useless. I know it may have been quite a shock, but, it's nearly 2019 guys..... Merry Xmas x

Which brand of make up can make humans change sex? Is there a patent? That is beyond genius.

Can'tgetridofthekids

I don't understand why you ar being taken out of context and lambasted in this way. You sound like a decent person and I am sorry for how you are being treated by society.

If you “go without” be the catalyst to campaign for the “formal body “ to educate men to welcome other gender non conforming men in their spaces.

Alexander
The Keele link is from Pombear (thanks) at 22.14 yesterday. Senthurun Raj a law lecturer stating women should be challenged not accommodated for not accepting a man in their changing rooms.🤐

Re the danger all men are perceived to be a threat comment - I see, trot out the old line to be nice in case you upset the menz feels. In this upside down, topsy turvy world , women must be empowered to retain not discard their boundaries. (Just not empowered in a WYP way though😉)

*As a result for so many things I end up going without.

This thread is about women's needs.*

And once again the final sentence of something I say is taken in isolation and used as a weapon, despite the fact that two lines above I said "For the record, I DONT beleive that putting penises into womens changing areas is appropriate. ".

Unnecessary.

I hope you won't see this as patronising, but we've been saying this (those of us especially who are radfems) for years. And repeatedly on this board

Sadly though it hasnt filtered through to the establishment. We end up with the likes of Stonewall and Mermaids as prominent organisations calling the shots for their own political ends.

There needs to be a formal body set up to look at the abolition of gender stereotyping and start delivering training that is essentially the opposite of what Mermaids are saying.

I couldnt even manage a quick nip into Boots this morning for headache tablets without getting abuse !

What never ceases to astonish me is how a fair number of people feel the need to hurl abuse at others. I just don't get it.

Absolutely but at times there is a tendency to teach that all males are a threat to females.

You're aware NAMALT is an MRA talking point, right?

You really should stop regurgitating them on a feminist board - especially if you want women to take your other points about identity with anything less than a fuckton of salt.

To further clarify my previous that would mean that a biological male is able to go into a mens changing facility, change into a swimsuit, apply makeup, plait their hair, wear a dress etc. without being targeted for verbal, physical and sexual abuse.

I couldnt even manage a quick nip into Boots this morning for headache tablets without getting abuse !

For the record, I DONT beleive that putting penises into womens changing areas is appropriate. I also recognise though that for a transsexual person undergoing transition the male facilities is a dangerous place to be. As a result for so many things I end up going without.