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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rachel McKinnon on Radio Five Live

43 replies

treaclesoda · 18/12/2018 07:53

Five Live are broadcasting a 'poor me' interview with Rachel McKinnon.

RMcK says that people seem to view women's sport as something that needs protected...as if that's a bad thing.

Now interviewing a trans racing driver, which is hardly the same... Hmm

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andyoldlabour · 19/12/2018 09:04

I think this guy sums it all up perfectly, and he has been attacked for stating the obvious.
@4.37 in the video

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=911&v=KQpQmNhya14

When the IOC, EUFA, FA, UCI, all of the sports governing bodies, make decisions regarding transgender issues, guess who advises them?
Transgender people - more specifically transwomenHmm
What could possibly go wrong?

NotBadConsidering · 19/12/2018 08:24

I wonder how many of the 100,000 hostile tweets were just people saying “I don’t think this is fair”.

Someone should tell Martina Navratilova that not only is she expected to be willing compete with someone with a penis, she is also expected to be willing to have sex with someone with a penis.

Thegirlinthefireplace · 19/12/2018 08:09

Sportswoman

Thegirlinthefireplace · 19/12/2018 08:08

Was just coming to post that painintheear. Finally s high profile sport swam says something!

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 19/12/2018 07:56

Martina Navratilova
@Martina
Clearly that can’t be right. You can’t just proclaim yourself a female and be able to compete against women. There must be some standards, and having a penis and competing as a woman would not fit that standard…

mobile.twitter.com/Martina/status/1075193284660785153

LiteralDemocrat · 19/12/2018 07:48

I saw the online article ( www.bbc.co.uk/sport/46453958 )and have complained via the BBC complaints website (bbc.co.uk/complaints). Below is my complaint if it helps people do similar - feel free to use or cut and paste or edit:

This article (written by a man) about the impacts on women's sport, was hugely biased.

Examples of this include:

  • The headline needlessly placing the word 'threat' in quotes to minimise the seriousness of the issue
  • 61 lines of quotes from transwomen athletes, with not a single direct quote of more than one word from women or from anyone with a view that questions the issues around transwomen in sport
  • Uncorroborated claims from transwomen such as Rachel McKinnon about receiving 'hate messages' outweighing positive ones by 3000 to 1. Have you seen evidence of these hate messages? Have you seen evidence of the numbers? How do you define hate messages?
  • Deliberate or negligent omission of relevant evidence - for example

a) you interview Hannah Mouncey and give several paragraphs to Hannah Mouncey's views on the issue. You don't mention the broken bones which Hannah Mouncey's female competitors have already suffered.

b) you report your opinion that in some combat sports (such as boxing and judo) there are weight categories. You do not report, for example, that transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox caused a female opponent to receive a concussion, an orbital bone fracture, and seven staples within 2 minutes 17 seconds of their 'contest'.

c) You give great space to the arguments of Rachel McKinnon without even questioning how a psychology professor who had only recently taken up the sport became a world champion, or reporting that the reigning champion withdrew from the event beforehand because she knew that there was a disadvantage.

This was a highly biased, misleading propaganda piece, by a man, which gave no opportunity or examination of the issues around the impact of transwomen on women's sport.

Annandale · 19/12/2018 07:30

Please don't do that coyoacan. Your granddaughter should still be encouraged to enjoy sport. I would be a bit less keen on girls playing rugby in the current climate but then I am scared of ds playing rugby so I don't perhaps have a rational view of it. I very much want UK junior rugby to be played on a weight/height basis not an age basis, but God help us all if sex isn't considered relevant either at least from early puberty.

Coyoacan · 19/12/2018 05:23

I am somewhat gobsmacked that Alistair Magowan, being a sports commentator for one of the world's most important media, acts like he hasn't the first clue about the physical differences between men and women. Mind you, the IOC doesn't know either. What a strange world we live in.

I have a five-year-old granddaughter who loves physical challenges, but I think I will steer her clear of sports.

Annandale · 18/12/2018 22:23

In power sports, sex matters. I've rowed in mixed crews and women's crews. Mixed crews in races have rules about how many men and how many women, because it makes a difference. DUH. It is incredible that this is even having to be discussed.

The IOC: 'Corruption? What corruption? Look how woke we are! We have trans people competing! Not the Russians who have been slung in jail for being gay, obvs, but we have some trans people breaking lots of records in an exciting manner! Prime time meat for you, NBC! How much do you want to pay per advertising slot around exciting new world record, CocaCola? What do you mean, sponsors? Payment for awarding the Olympics? [cough] Look how woke we are!'

donquixotedelamancha · 18/12/2018 21:07

Rachel McKinnon also said that she had received 100,000 hostile tweets in relation to her victory

Poor Lance Armstrong got a lot of negative attention as well. Cycling fans seem like a bunch of meanies.

Rubidium · 18/12/2018 20:54

Some thoughts on www.bbc.co.uk/sport/46453958

"The practice of sport is a human right."

But competing at the highest level is not.

"McKinnon, who transitioned in her late-20s, says that results in "pretty radical physiological changes", with muscle mass, strength and speed all reduced. It also, claims McKinnon, "compounds ageing".

Sport at the highest level (like world championships) involves human beings performing extraordinary feats with a combination of physique, aptitude and skill that most of us don’t possess. Doping is unfair as it allows competitors to unnaturally exceed their innate physiology. So what’s the point of talking drugs that undermine your natural strength? Spectators don’t want to watch a race where e.g. Dina Asher Smith is handicapped in some way, spectators want to watch her perform at the peak of her ability.

"We permit very tall women to compete against short women in sports that select for tallness like basketball, volleyball or rowing, and we consider that fair. So we permit very large competitive advantages through natural characteristics.”

No, if you’re short you’re never going to compete at elite level in basketball, rowing etc. Tall people are always going to be better than you. I believe Kath Grainger took up rowing when someone approached her at Edinburgh Uni because she is tall and asked her to have a go. No-one’s stopping you doing these sports recreationally if you’re smaller, but there will come a point when you won’t be able to progress due to your physique.

"It also depends on the sport.

Regarding Charlie Martin, in motor sport there’s also the element that it’s the car manufacturers who are competing with each other as much as the drivers themselves. So using motor sport as a justification is a little odd.

For sports like cycling, where if you're going uphill you want to be as light as possible but as powerful as possible, someone with a larger skeleton is going to be carrying more weight, which is not helping them."

There’s always an element of horses for courses in cycling. Mark Cavendish will never win the Tour de France as he can’t do the long climbs as well as the other riders, but as a sprinter he is among the best in the world. That’s down to his natural physiology. But all the TdF competitors start with the bottom line that they are adult males.
If you compare cyclists like Emma Pooley (5’2”, slight build, high power to weight ratio so ideal for climbing but less effective on the level) and Kirsten Wild (5’9”, strong build, powerful over the flat but her heavier build less suited to climbing), they were never going to win the same races even though they’re both adult females.

Materialist · 18/12/2018 20:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

treaclesoda · 18/12/2018 14:24

Treaclesoda was Mckinnon on around 7.50 on Five Live?

Yes, I think it was still on air as I typed the opening post, so that timing would be about right.

OP posts:
OlennasWimple · 18/12/2018 13:44

By this logic you might as well have competitions for 'women and older or less fit men'

Well, in effect my golf club does, as we only have two sets of tees - one for men, and one for senior men (over 65), junior men (under 16) and women. It's rare that a woman outdrives a junior or a senior - it's usually only when the men are under 10 or over 75 that there's more parity.

I have a (non-tested) theory that the hormones that transwomen take do indeed make them weaker - but they fail to comprehend that they are still stronger than the average woman (because of all the other physiological advantages that the male physique confers)

andyoldlabour · 18/12/2018 13:16

@R0wantrees,

"The stages are usually awareness, curiosity, understanding & then possibly fighting."

On October 15th, when I first read about McKinnon, I think I managed that list of stages in about 1 hour Grin

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 13:05

Alistair Magowen 'BBC Sport journalist, Uefa B Licenced coach'

I wonder if in response to Rachel McKinnon claims, Alistair Magowen would ever say, "that might be described as cheating too. We report both sides just as we have done in this case"

The ongoing presentation of this being about 'two sides' is innacurate and only serves those who support trans-ideology.

My 70 yr old Dad is not a feminist, let alone a radical one.
He has played and coached sports most of his life.
He & many others, I'm sure regard McKinnon's position as unfair, illogical and to quote him, "bloody ridiculous"

Rachel McKinnon on Radio Five Live
DoctorW · 18/12/2018 13:04

This is utterly disgraceful bias yet again by the BBC. The BBC is getting in the way of legitimate debate. I have send a dossier of examples, including this one, to Samira Ahmed of BBC Newswatch asking her to look into this. Please write into the program if you think the BBC is breach its public duty for fairness on trans issues.

[email protected]
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qjrk2

Mumfun · 18/12/2018 12:46

in the BBC article Rachael McKinnon says they want to defend their Masters championship to be held in England. Should be interesting!

SunsetBeetch · 18/12/2018 12:42

twitter.com/alistairmagowan/status/1075005043537924096?s=19

FPFW: "Have you read this letter by @AnaPaulaVolei to the IOC? She sees the 'threat' just like so many other sports people. Or is this just more transphobia? This isn't a student mag you are writing for, its the BBC. We expect higher standards that this."

AM: "I'd imagine that this might be described as transphobic too. We report both sides, as we have done in this case."

SunsetBeetch · 18/12/2018 12:40

Woke beardy BBC bloke says counter arguments are transphobic.

"I think the transphobic point was made to your claim that there was a "threat" to female sport. You also said that women "would leave sport in their droves". Context is key here. 0.3%-0.75% of UK population is trans, numbers playing sports are fewer."

twitter.com/alistairmagowan/status/1074999658009780224?s=19

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 12:37

Princess Anne is still one of our reps on the IOC, I wonder if she would be interested in fighting for this cause?

The stages are usually awareness, curiosity, understanding & then possibly fighting.
Smile

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 12:36

andyoldlabour

I think its really worth anyone with connections to sporting bodies, clubs etc sending and sharing the letter with a short note asking them to consider.

Ana Paula Henkel makes very important points which must be considered and discussed.

The majority of the population are still not aware.
Its a good starting point.

andyoldlabour · 18/12/2018 12:32

R0wantrees, what a great letter!
Princess Anne is still one of our reps on the IOC, I wonder if she would be interested in fighting for this cause?

Procrastinator1 · 18/12/2018 12:18

Treaclesoda was Mckinnon on around 7.50 on Five Live?

R0wantrees · 18/12/2018 11:35

If this is left unchecked it could well destroy women's sport.

Fairplay for Women website recently published:

'Open Letter to the International Olympic Committee by Ana Paula Henkel'
"Thirty three year old, 6′ 3″ tall Brazillian volley ball player Tifanny Abreu is expected to be one of the first male-born transgender athletes competing in the Olympics at Tokyo 2020.

New rules set by the IOC (International Olympic Committee) in 2016 now allow transgender athletes to compete in women’s sport if they can show their Testosterone levels are below the arbitrary level of 10nM for 12 months. Surgery is not required. 10nM is below the average male Testosterone range (average 23nM) but above the female average of 2.6nM.

There is currently no robust scientific evidence to show that lowering Testosterone is sufficient to fully eliminate the male competitive advantage brought to female sport by male-born transgender athletes.

Abreu started playing men’s volleyball at age 17 as Rodrigo Abreu, competing at men’s professional league level. After starting to identify as a women in 2012 and changing names to Tiffany, Abreu started playing in the women’s professional league in 2017. In less that a month, Abreu was scoring the highest number of points a game on average and then beat the record set by one of Brazil’s Olympic stars, Tandara Caixeta, for total points scored in a single game: 39.

Translated from Portuguese by Cátia Freitas

Dear Sirs,
First of all I’d like to thank the BOC and the BCV for the opportunities bestowed upon me to represent my country in four Olympiads and numerous volleyball world championships. Those were years of enormous sacrifice and pleasure providing daily witness of the valorous ideals of the Baron of Coubertin, ideals that will always reside in my soul.

To be able to represent my country among the best of the world is the greatest honour an athlete can dream of in their career. Among the titles reached, certainly, the confidence, given to me, that I’d present the image of Brazilian sport, with respect and dignity, for 24 years of my life, is in my career, one of my most cherished achievements.

It is with respect but much concern that I write, to all entities responsible for sport, about the threat to the virtue of women’s competitions that now occurs with the acceptance of athletes that were born men, developed muscle mass, bone mass, lung and air capacity as men, in forms of sport created and formatted specifically for women. If someone has to go public and pay a price in the name of truth, common sense and fact, I’m willing to bear the consequences. The space, won with integrity by women in sport is at play.

I’m proud of having inherited the values that built the western civilisation, the most liberal, tolerant and diverse of human history. This unique social and cultural legacy has allowed us, women, to gain our space in society, in the market and sport. It’s in the celebration of our differences that we become more united, men and women, inside and outside the field and it is through that legacy that we can look upon each and every individual as a unique and special being.

At a time when political militancy condenses and reduces thinking to ideological soundbites that deny reality, it’s not difficult to identify the trap where sports entities have fallen and which can take away all women’s sport. We know of sports strength to elevate the human spirit above conflict and war, especially every four years, when, during three magical weeks, we witness that which is best and most noble in all of us. We need to defend that legacy.

The truth most obvious and most respected by all who are involved in sport is the biological difference between men and women. If this weren’t the case why the need to to establish categories separated by sex? Why is the men’s volley net set at 2.43m height and the women’s at 2.24m? A good sense superficial analysis of men and women’s physical traits in basketball is, enough to understand these categories are not interchangeable.

Swimmer Allison Schmitt set the 200m world record at 1:53.61, an admirable feat, but when compared to Michael Phelps’ 1:42-96 in the same modality, it only evidences the physical differences between men and women. Women’s under 17 football teams are used to training and losing against men’s teams. There is an infinity of examples about how it doesn’t make sense to mix men and women in sports where physical strength makes a difference to the end result.

Is it fair, to simply pretend away these undeniable biological differences in the name of a political ideology which will serve to restrict a space so hard won by women who struggled for it for so many centuries? How to accept “biological” men in fighting competitions, pitilessly hitting women, and then gaining acclaim, medals and money for it? Have we all gone so crazy as to permit such degradation? “It’s a great difference and we feel impotent”

Doctors are starting to pronounce themselves about the evident advantages of transexual athlets in female sports and contest the recommendation made by the IOC of allowing trans athletes in women’s competitions with only a year of low level testosterone. Several physiologists have already attested that this IOC parameter does not revert the effects of the male hormone in the, decades long, already finalised development of bone, tissue, organs and muscle. Volleyball coaches in Brazil and Italy are already relating how sporting agents are offering places in women’s volley teams to trans athletes, biological men who will occupy women’s places in their teams. How long are we going to keep quiet while we witness this? I refuse to.

The voices of sports people, in general, and women volleyball players, in particular, are being stifled. Many don’t express their indignation for the total lack of protection by sports entities aiding and abetting this nonsense. “It’s a great difference and we feel impotent”, said Juliana Fillipeli, player for Pinheiros volley team, as she saw Tiffany Abreu, ex-Rodrigo, win against her team and, once again, beat the points record in that final. Tiffany, who played in Brazil’s men’s Super League as Rodrigo, is, in a very few games, now the highest scoring player in the women’s Super League, leaving an Olympic champion and one of the best players in Brazil and the world, Tandara, behind.

During 24 years, dedicated to volleyball, I was submitted to the most rigorous anti-doping control by all sporting entities, including the Word Anti-Doping Agency (WADA). I was tested while I competed and outside of competitions to prove my body was not built on testosterone at any moment in my life. For women, of all the tests, the most important is the one which accurately measures the levels of the male hormone, which is strictly prohibited from use or its body production induced at every stage of a women’s sporting life.

To summarise, ever since my adolescence, I needed to prove, scientifically, that I am a woman to compete and, later, to maintain my achievements, titles and medals. How many women did not lose titles or were banned from sport specifically on account of this hormone which is offal in a normal male body? There used to be a mutual trust between athletes, entities and federations to keep sport clean, fair and honest, with no shortcuts nor trickery. This is now a relationship one step from being broken.

The sample material taken years ago for anti-doping tests of all athletes, is still kept today and can be, at any moment, accessed and tested again. A new measurement that proves testosterone levels incompatible with a female body can take away titles, achievements of years or decades ago, retroactively. This level of rigour has been completely abandoned to accommodate transexuals who, not long ago, were men, some of whom having competed professionally as men. What would a female transexual sample show? This is completely unacceptable.

Transexuals inclusion in society needs to be accepted, but this rushed and heedless decision to include biological men, born and built with testosterone, with their height, their strength and aerobic capacity of men, is beyond the sphere of tolerance. It represses, embarrasses, humiliates and excludes women.

We currently look on as sporting entities blind themselves to human biology, in an attempt to hoodwink science in the name of politico-ideological agendas. We currently look on a moral perversion against women and the complicity of sport authorities around the world in a supreme form of misogyny. A declaration of good intentions, on the part of entities responsible for protecting scrupulous and correct sport, is not sufficient to justify such sizeable absurdity.

Sport has always been a great and respected vehicle for women’s gains, a weapon that has always evidenced women’s worth to those who have tried to impose limits on the dreams of all women who have struggled and fought to show our value, talent, capacity to overcome and merit.

On the week that we celebrate Martin Luther King, I leave, to world sports leaderships, one of his celebrated quotes: “Our lives start to end the day we silence ourselves about things which are really important.”
fairplayforwomen.com/ana_paula_henkel/

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