Are women hated because we are weak?

I think @goldenwonderwall has it.

I don't think the patriarchy hates us. Much as we don't hate the horses we use for labour or the dogs we keep as pets. We can find them useful, we often love them, but we don't generally consider them equals.

Obviously not all men view women this way, but of those that do some have benign or even good intentions and some enjoy being cruel. I think it has to do with the way they were raised.

Well the evidence suggests that a lot of men don’t see women as fully human. I think the slave analogy is unfortunately very apt. From the fact that rape in marriage was only recognised as a crime in many of our lifetimes to the fact women are still paid less than men in the workplace to the number of women murdered by men every year that are supposed to have loved and cared for them, we can see that many men do not see women as worth the same as them, have the same human value as them. And this is just the uk - how many millions of women and girls live in societies where they are still bought and sold like cattle in 2018?

As men are the ones that hold the majority of powerful situations they are the only ones that can change it currently. Is there any solidarity for women from men as a class? Individuals, maybe, but I don’t know if there’s anything that would benefit solely women that the majority of men as a class would support. I’m amazed tbh we’ve managed to get as much as we have.

Men who hate women say we have "penis envy" and that we are jealous of their strength, their biology, their inventiveness, their achievements etc.

It seems some posters just flip this round and smugly profess some limited understanding of the hatred given that actually we are the ones with the ability to control men. Men's sexual desire for women has also historically been regarded as a weakness.

I'm afraid I'm starting to see why some feminists get accused of man hating with these views. Men's self esteem relies on women ? Think about who men spend their time really trying to impress.

The men who hate women do so not because women are weak but because THEY are . Women are the gatekeepers (like it or not ) to much of men's self esteem , in mothering , nurturing and supporting them . Sexual attraction and availability are major factors obviously , but I think that much of men's anger towards women is based on resentment that women have in their gift what men want - approval , nurturing , admiration , care .

When these are withheld or not available to a certain type of man they become very angry and resentful , and I definitely see this in some , often very femme or camp , gay men who openly despise women . . Narcissistic and infantile men become very angry when their wonderfulness and authority is not acknowledged or served .

BlindYeo

I think there are many problems with this theory that men (NAM) hate us because they find us sexually irresistible and constantly desire us.

Firstly, how does that explain the misogyny directed at older women ? It can't just be because an old woman doesn't want to have sex. Secondly it gives women (and men) the impression that the only reason a woman would be celibate is because she is picky. Thus the horrendous incel movement is seen not as an expression of male entitlement, but a natural result of the huge imbalance in sexual desire that exists.

I was a young woman once and I remember being quite obsessed with boys and various idols. I don't think even the most lusted after male would ever conclude "women only want one thing". So I'm sure that in situations where balance is clearly the other way around, i.e. more females desire the man than he desires, it doesn't lead to open expression of hostility. The difference is women just accept it to a degree whereas men are more likely to beleived in the whole idea that they can earn or win female desire.

Oh I didn't answer the OP. I think Klutzy had it on page one. Some men (but NAMALT obviously) hate women because they want to shag any woman any old time they like and feel they ought to be able to. They can't because women are a bit choosier than that due to the costs. So they hate women for frustrating their wants.

I kind of get it if I think about it like cake. I love cake. If someone put cake in front of me all day every day but didn't let me eat it when I thought I had a right to some especially when they kept showing it to me, I'd get really annoyed too. Cake-controlling bitches. Which I think it why women get burkas chucked over them in some countries. If we can't just have it, you're sure as hell not flaunting it. And if you do, we'll punish you.

There's a theory that monogamy/polygamy is related to primate bollock size. www.tremr.com/Duck-Rabbit/primate-testicle-size-determines-sexual-norms-say-researchers.

And, rather depressingly, it also theorises that sexual strategies can be about avoiding infanticide by males.

Human males' testicles are apparently in the intermediate primate range. So yes we practise monogamy to an extent but I wonder if biologically we're really sort of 'serial monogamists'. We fall for people long enough to both bring up a baby to a decent age but then as so often is seen, the passion dies, and lots of relationships falter or are miserable. Or certainly involve less sex. I know it's more complex than that, but our rates of relationship breakdown are unlike a true 'lifetime partner' species.

Alas ! FWRLurker someone who agrees with me ! Beware you will be described as a "monogamy fetishist" by some posters

One thing to point out is that Evolutionary Biology would predict multiple different "sexual strategies" (to use lingo often horribly misappropirated by men's right's activitsts) could be successful.

That is to say, there may be a minority of men who were successful at passing their genes on through coercive control of women's reproduction. And there may be some men who use a "pump and dump" strategy and just try to impregnate as many women as possible. And on the other side, there may also be a minority of women who seek to find a "good genes" male for sex and a male who can provide direct benefits / wealth for longer term partnership.

However, monogamy, overall, is in fact the more common strategy among humans - and it is derived relative to the other great apes. Approximately 30% of couples experience at least one instance of cheating. This is actually extremely low when you think about it in evolutionary terms! How likely is it that a pregnancy would result from this? These strategies are therefore going to be quite insignificant when you look at the grand scheme of darwinian fitness. Perhaps they persist because they do work, occasionally. And unfortunately they bring with them all kinds of garbage.

Monogamy, in evolutionary terms, is a strategy that often goes hand in hand with improved cooperation between all individuals in the species, and with a need for bi (or group) parental care. Interestingly if you compare humans to the other great apes, our reproductive interests are far more aligned then they were in the past. Both males and females need to find and retain a high quality, productive partner if they want to reproduce successfully. Jealousy of our partners, love, dopamine, etc all exist to maintain these long term bonds, which are quite rare in the rest of the animal kingdom.

Did you know that women have babies because it's a convenient way to escape the workplace whilst being paid (and often supported by a man)?

that happens all the time. When women are killing men at the same rate that men kill women, maybe it will make sense for them to discuss it.

That's a rather odd justification for making wildly absurd statements like 'women have children because men pester them and they give in.'

that happens all the time. When women are killing men at the same rate that men kill women, maybe it will make sense for them to discuss it.

I wonder how most of the posters on this thread would react to a bloke making spurious claims about 'how women think'? 🤔

I don’t think it’s jealousy as such, in the same way that I don’t think women have penis envy. I think it’s more a realisation that they can’t have total control over women and subsequent anger over that. I do think so much of this is subconscious though. I don’t think men go around thinking they hate women at all. It comes out when they get angry with a woman- their wife, gf, boss whatever. Then they find a degree of rage that this person is a woman so it makes them ‘stepping out of line’ even worse.

TheWiseWomansFear

I have heard this theory before. I suppose that pretty much all the theories are generally depressing. You get the MRA interpretation which is that women are as a consequence naturally duplicitous and that they will seek out a good provider tricking him into carrying another man's child.

One feminist argument is that this the source of men's desire to control women.

I prefer to think that love and trust are the evolved counter balance. When a woman loves a man they don't want (well I'm sure there are exceptions) to have sex with anyone else, especially not at the beginning which is the bit where the most sex is likely happening. Love and trusting interpersonal relationships enable many advantages so maybe that's the reason they exist?

Of course the misogynistic idea is that fundamentally women are not trustworthy in the same way men are, that women are naturally cunning. This insecurity must come from somewhere I agree.

Aka women have certainty and men are permanently unsure of their children

I wrote part of my thesis on this. Essentially, women have power. We can be certain our children are ours, men evolutionarily aren't certain (paternity tests are relatively new) and men hate that. Keep the women, creators of life, certain of progeny, down and you have control. Jesus? A male god? ... all a way of trying to displace the mothers of earth and humanity.

Yes there are generalisations between the sexes. Generalisations like 'women have periods' and 'women give birth'

Those aren't generalisations- they are statements of fact. You demonstrate the absurdity of class analysis by using them. All women , barring a tiny few born without a womb, menstruate. All humans who give birth are women.

And your way of stopping them doing this is to do the same thing right back? Two wrongs don't make a right.

Because men go on and on at us until we agree to have kids.

Um, ok....

Yes there are generalisations between the sexes. Generalisations like 'women have periods' and 'women give birth'. Men have always thrown plenty of generalisations about women around in the past: it's the basis of our historical marginalisation. Which has occurred to 'women' as a class. If men don't like it then they should not have been dishing it out for millennia, and no it won't stop just because it isn't convenient to men right now.

There is a lot of 'men want' and 'men do' going on in this thread.

Quite

It’s the sort of casual generalisations backed up with half arsed anecdotes and cod psychology that you find on MRA sites. Throw in some tin foil hat paranoia this thread makes for a fairly unedifying read.

1. I'm pretty sure that doesn't work when your 'class' is half of the population.
2. Rationalise it all you want, it's still prejudice.
3. I still believe it's ultimately unhelpful and does not inspire respect for feminists, or help our cause.

'Class based analysis' - prejudice with academic rationalisation.