DM: I believe I'm proof no man can truly become a woman

I would prefer to listen to transpeople as to what they think about sexual reassignment surgery

As transsexual myself I can give you my perspective.

Changing sex is impossible. The best SRS achieves is an "artistic representation" of a vagina which creates a body more in line with a person's preferred gender. There are many risks with the surgery.

There is however one important point to consider. For many, especially those AGP, the belief is that SRS gives a vagina comparable to a biological female but truth is the vagina is a non lubricating, non stretchy inside out scrotum !

Where SRS is successful I believe is for those whose focus isn't so much in having a vagina but those for who dysphoria/dysmorphia means having a penis causes extreme distress and they just want rid of the penis.

For me I cannot begin to describe the years since childhood of hating my penis... the many times I tried to work out ways to self mutilate. The times I used to plan doing something in a hospital car park. The body modification artists I researched who I thought could do something. An erection would trigger a panic attack. I grow up seeing my penis as a birth defect or cancerous growth and no amount of therapy changed that.That's a very very different scenario to "I like vaginas so I want one".

I wholeheartedly agree with many here that unrealistic expectations are being given. I do think in some cases there is a tremendous value in the operation but for many it isn't going to resolve anything.

Very interesting post FlyingOink

Lack of sexual or romantic partners is a consideration that many people overlook. Pre-internet, gay people flocked to cities. Partially due to an easier life there, greater acceptance, etc but certainly partly due to the fact there was a "scene", the chance of being able to choose a potential partner, have friends similar to oneself, etc.
Even with the internet trans people don't have that. They can hang out in groups, but trans isn't a sexuality so there's no impetus to form social groups, socialise, flirt, dance etc. It's amazing how much of a driver that is. Add that to the fact many trans people prefer straight or gay people as potential partners instead of other trans people and the pool gets smaller.
So you've got a tiny group, spread out, tagging on to gay groups at a time when the gay scenes are disappearing due to Grindr, chemsex, smoking bans and high drink prices along with much greater social acceptance - now you can be as gay as you like in wetherspoons why trek to the gay bar in the other side of town with the sticky carpet?
Transwomen I have known have had a hard time finding partners who weren't abusive, exploitative or fetishistic. Transmen just paired off with lesbians and then got annoyed they weren't being taken seriously as men, despite never leaving female spaces. The apron strings never got cut. I sometimes wonder if that's one reason why we have the cotton ceiling nonsense. Transmen and transwomen conversing, and the transmen letting slip that the most inclusive demographic group is lesbians...transwomen thinking "yep I'll have me some of that" and it not quite working out?

It's such a sad story. So many things compounding her experience.
The reality that she has faced is harsh but true and I am so glad she has written this article. It is impossible to change sex. When you try, you will never quite fit or be accepted in any meaningful sense.
Kids are being told a lie and that needs to be pointed out.

I would prefer to listen to transpeople as to what they think about sexual reassignment surgery

Off you pop then. They're not hard to find.

I'm not interested in talking about SRS surgery on here either, other than to point out it has fuck all to do with women because human beings cannot change sex.

Well again, I would prefer to listen to transpeople as to what they think about sexual reassignment surgery, instead of trying to tell transpeople what would and wouldn't make them happy!

Then perhaps you need to go and find a suitable forum? If you can't cope with hearing feminist viewpoints you are in the wrong place, there are plenty of other boards on mumsnet where you'll find a more receptive audience.

"Why should best practice for one type of dysphoria (eg gender) differ so completely from treatments for other types of dysphoria?"

This has always bothered me about trans ideology. If a 7 stone anorexic is certain they are fat and they would be happy if only they could weigh 6 stone, you would be castigated if you pointed them in the directions of weightwatchers and agreed they were a bit chubby. But with trans people, we are apparently supposed to confirm their dysphoria.

I would prefer to listen to transpeople as to what they think about sexual reassignment surgery

Trouble is there was massive lobbying in to prevent this particular story being told. Who knows what other tales of regret are not heard.

What a sad article. But I imagine that there as many sad stories like this as there are stunning tales of success. For me, it highlights the importance of proper counseling and consideration before any medical intervention happens. Because unhappy people who are socially at odds will be so no matter what they wear.

Even without any knowledge of biology, one should be able to deduce from all the other things science cannot do that a sex change brought about by modern medicine it is rather unlikely.

This argument is irrelevant. The facts are, (1) some people have gender dysphoria, and (2) allowing them to live as their preferred gender is the best treatment in most cases. Whether or not they are technically the gender they identify as is a useless discussion.

"Gender dysphoria" is about not liking how the biological sex you are is treated in modern society.

You know how I'm constantly told that because I'm not a woman, I shouldn't talk about women? Yeah, if you're not a transperson, I think you should refrain from trying to tell transpeople what the cause of their gender dysphoria is.

Also... there's absolutely not a shred of evidence for what you've just said.

So it is unlikely it will make anyone happy.

Well again, I would prefer to listen to transpeople as to what they think about sexual reassignment surgery, instead of trying to tell transpeople what would and wouldn't make them happy!

We needed proof that no man can truly become a woman?

It should be clear to anyone with some basic knowledge of biology and human anatomy.

As long as science can't grow new hands or eyes for those who have lost body parts, they can't create female sex organs for a man, or vice versa.

It is baffling that some people don't seem to grasp this simple fact. We accept that dentists can only give us fillings and fake teeth, but not regrow our real teeth, but science is supposedly far enough advanced to make people change sex?

Even without any knowledge of biology, one should be able to deduce from all the other things science cannot do that a sex change brought about by modern medicine it is rather unlikely.

"Gender dysphoria" is about not liking how the biological sex you are is treated in modern society.

Sex dysphoria, a term rarely used, would be about not feeling comfortable in your own body.
Common sense says that a very poor copy of what you allegedly want is not likely to make you happy.

Most young girls who want a pony would probably not be very happy to be given a bike and be told that they can go places with that, too.

They might be happier with a rabbit, seeing as it is four-legged and furry and they can pet it, which is at least three things a horse is instead of just one.

However, I don't think gender surgery really concerns itself with what people want to achieve by getting a poor copy of the other sex's body. So it is unlikely it will make anyone happy.

Betty I thought the same

(I’m already being a digressive pest on this thread so I may as well also mention that April Ashley’s dog is gorgeous)

Allowing someone to transition to their desired gender is the best known treatment for gender dysphoria.

As medics recently stated in a letter to the BMJ:

Published 29 October 2018
'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
authors: Richard Byng, general practitioner and professor in primary care research, Susan Bewley, emeritus professor of obstetrics and women’s health, Damian Clifford, consultant liaison psychiatrist, Margaret McCartney, general practitioner and freelance writer
(extracts)
"A recent feature in The BMJ implied that new services are all that’s needed to improve transgender healthcare. Providing timely, sensitive services for all, including those who decide to not pursue treatment or detransition, is important. But the article did not question the steep rise in referrals of mainly young women or the potential harms of medical overdiagnosis and overtreatment" (continues)

"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles" (continues)

www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490.full?ijkey=6lX93kQA0lz5YoB&keytype=ref

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410257-BMJ-article-We-need-research-to-explore-the-interplays-between-gender-identity-mental-health-and-neurodevelopmental-problems-sexual-orientation-autogynephilia-and-unpalatable-gender-roles

Allowing someone to transition to their desired gender is the best known treatment for gender dysphoria.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

It doesn't mean people can change sex.

FamousPJ

Why should best practice for one type of dysphoria (eg gender) differ so completely from treatments for other types of dysphoria?

But transitioning seems to transfer the suffering from the individual with the condition onto other people, particularly their loved ones and dependents. Surely it's time to find a more socially responsible treatment?

Sunkisses
Thank you for the link. I watched the documentary.

Its a reminder of times which were more openly sexist and homophobic.

I believe that some in the medical profession have not always acted in the best interests of their patients.

It didn't help Leanne, did it?

Which is why it's important for professionals to explain the risks before transitioning, yes. You can find stories of people being worse off after any medical intervention (yes, that even includes vaccination).

How many people would continue to suffer with gender dysphoria if we didn't help or allow anyone to transition?

Line-dancing tends to be a multi generational activity, so while I did momentarily assume that the friends were elderly, I questioned my assumptions before posting and decided to check my prejudice 😂

It didn't help Leanne, did it?

Allowing someone to transition to their desired gender is the best known treatment for gender dysphoria.

Well, it's certainly the best known, but that doesn't mean it's the best that could possibly exist. I can readily believe that the kind of psychoanalytic treatment that would have been tried in the 70s-90s wasn't much use. However, when I've tried to look up trials of Cognitive behaviour therapy (CBT) for gender dysphoria, I haven't really found anything. This more modern approach would, IMO, be more likely to work, at least for some cases, but it would need to be tested, and the current climate will be preventing that.

As Leanne's Mother was 80, I expect the other line dancers were a similar age so were probably quite confused?

From this, and posts on other threads this week, it seems to me that a form of 'self-acceptance' (so to speak) plays a part in the treatment for dysphoria. Almost more than any physical transition, which I'm starting to see as more a case of treating the symptoms not the cause, IYSWIM.

A clumsy analogy - you can take painkillers to make you feel better, but just doing that won't address the cause of the pain, and may make it harder to treat the cause.

Allowing someone to transition to their desired gender is the best known treatment for gender dysphoria.