Open Letter to The IOC regarding transwoman Tiffany Abreu

What possible tests or restrictions would provide a level playing field under these circumstances?

None. The playing field is not level, and that's why separate categories for men and women were created in the first place.

The issue with studies comparing transwomen to biological women in terms of sports performance is not only that very little has been done, its that its unfeasible to do any. Even if you compare the average transwoman to the average woman, you cannot extend these results to a comparison of a top transwoman athlete to a top woman athlete. The number of top transwomen athletes is currently too small to do a statistically useful investigation. And even if there were more transwomen athletes, are these really comparable to top female athletes? Or are they actually second rate male athletes who are transitioning, rather than the real top of the male bell curve?

Basically, its a nonsense, and common sense should just take precedence.

Because this is the least oppressed rights movement ever to exist.

Quite.

Dadjoke
The argument does not have to accept that TWAM, merely that trans women are advantaged because of their physiognomy

Now why would trans women have physiological advantages? Oh yes. Because they are men. Don't tell me what I can and cannot say.

DadJoke, I appreciate that you probably think you've found a clever way to move the discussion forward, and I am pleased that you're trying.

The problem is, you have things a bit backwards.

Once upon a time, we were happy to discuss the semantics and find a middle ground, most of us started in that place (so assuming you have a previously unthought of solution comes off as mansplainy).
We got nasty abuse for our trouble.

We are holding the line on twam because we have learned the hard way that any polite concession invites a big fucking bulldozer. They didn't just steal the word woman, they went on to steal female and any word that we might dare to use to describe our material biological female reality.

We didn't destroy the goodwill in having a nuanced debate. Blame the #nodebate crew who prefer slurs and masks and baseball bats.

Unless and until the TRAs can give me an alternative working definition of woman, that holds up legally wrt acknowledging and mitigating the female biological disadvantages/oppression, then your attempts to smooth things over with semantic games won't work. If we pick a new noun, they'll steal it. If we try to compromise, they accuse you of bigotry. Nothing less than repeated total capitulation is enough.

The argument does not have to accept that TWAM, merely that trans women are advantaged because of their physiognomy. Does anyone know who we should write to?

Faster than

On a basic, biological level, regardless of any other hormones, male born people will be faster of female born people because of the shape of the hips. I thing can change that. Even if they are on cross sex hormones from puberty they still have a physiological advantage.

TW are male. That is the point. If we aren’t honest then the whole point of objecting to men in women’s sports is lost.

Any response which in any respect accepts TWAW means the argument is entirely lost. The only basis for objecting to TW in women's sport is that they are men.

I'm going to throw this into the debate.

The issue with the current trans women competitors is that they've been through puberty, their bodies have developed as men due to testosterone and no amount of surgery or hormones can reduce that physical advantage over natal women. To me, this means they should not be competing against women who had a natural oestrogen-fuelled puberty.

However...... What if a male-born child suffering from gender dysphoria is put on puberty blockers before puberty even really starts? Their physical development in theory stops until they are then given oestrogen to facilitate their gender change. How would this affect their sporting performance? Would the fact that they'd not gone through a male puberty give them the same level of strength as a woman or would they still have even a little bit of the male advantage?

I guess we won't know the answers until the current generation of children taking puberty blockers (plus the hormone of their choice) reach adulthood. I'll be interested to see how this all pans out.

Excellent letter.

IUsed2BAnOptimist I get you. But don’t call them men.

Well done Ana

Dad joke I meant that it would be substituting the argument that trans women (men) shouldn't compete against women with a new argument that maybe they could but it all depends....
Best keep it simple imo.

if your language assumes that trans woman are not women then no one outside mumsnet will listen to you

Correction. Depending on which of the three professional surveys so far undertaken, between 75% and 87% of the population will agree with you. However, it is correct to say that no-one with institutional or corporate or political power will listen to you.

Because this is the least oppressed rights movement ever to exist.

If you want to win that debate before winning this one, good luck with that.

They aren't. Unless you define the material category to replace adult human female, debate really. HTH.

ErrolTheDragon not without going way off topic and derailing the thread.

IUsed2BAnOptimist I wasn’t suggesting that we expand the number of mixed sports.

I don’t think trans women should compete in sports in any sport in the women’s category where sex-based phenotypical variations give them an advantage.

Surely it's much simpler to keep with sex based segregation across the board. (Except things like equestrian sport which has always been mixed). Opening up a new possibilities for argument regarding defining which sports are subject to sex to sex-based advantages and which don't just makes matters worse.

MsMcWoodle I am suggesting a course of action which I think is more likely to result in a positive outcome. Take it or leave it.

I don’t think trans women should compete in sports in any sport in the women’s category where sex-based phenotypical variations give them an advantage. See how I said that without making any assumptions as to whether twaw. If you want to win that debate before winning this one, good luck with that.

I think you need to argue that sex and gender segregation are different things.

Sure. The former is something that's necessary in certain circumstances, for various reasons. Sport is one of those, because humans are physically as well as sexually dimorphic. I can't think of any case at all where segregation by 'gender' is necessary, can you?

At the end of the day it's very simple. Trans women are biologically male and therefore should not be competing against biological females in sports. That should be the end of discussion.

DadJoke - are you a man? I don't understand why it is ok to come here and tell women how they should be behaving.
Also - nobody really believes that transwomen are women. Nobody.

@DadJoke did you miss the? at the end of my sentence?

I think it needs to be honest. TW are male. That is the point. If we aren’t honest then the whole point of objecting to men in women’s sports is lost.

BruceAndNosh it’s not OK at all. Testosterone reduction does not compensate for years of development as an XY person.