Open Letter to The IOC regarding transwoman Tiffany Abreu

Transwomen have a different phenotype? One that is completely coincidentally the same as an adult human males’s phenotype?

Either you believe sex is determined biological or you believe it’s determined psychologically - only one has any relevance to fair sporting categorisation.

AngryAttackKittens I have made the argument up thread and on another thread based on the relative performance of men’s and women’s categories, based on sex differences. This does not require references to gender identity at all.

If we agree that sex based differences mean it’s unfair for trans women to compete in the wimen’s category, then we can argue for their exclusion based on their sex at birth. Their gender is not relevant.

Knicknackpaddyflak you can believe TWAW and still acknowledge sex differences. Trans women have a different phenotype because of sexual dimorphism. There is no point in getting bogged down in gender vs sex arguments on this thread.

That's just it, isn't it? How far is society expected to go to fix that one person's unhappiness? How many other people must be sacrificed in order to ensure that they don't feel thwarted in their desires? Is the answer "all 3.5 billion or so female people"?

There is a strong argument that input from those people who believe in sex segregation but also that TWAW will really help.

What? If you believe in sex segregation AND that TWAW then you believe TW should compete with women. Obviously. Because how else could you explain it?

Biological sex and gender identity are two totally separate things. Extreme emotional distress that a desired physical reality isn't achievable is the basis of this huge, sympathy and compassion based illusion and fogging of inconvenient facts and science. Either you believe it's more important to be compassionate about this - regardless of the cost to others and to society - or you believe there are lines that have to be drawn and limits to what can be allowed that must apply fairly and equally to everyone.

There are different height/weight charts for Male and Female babies from birth (as seen in the ‘red book’ given to all new babies born in the U.K.) so blocking Male puberty with drugs clearly isn’t enough to wipe out all physiological sex differences.

Only female babies should grow up to qualify for women’s sport.

There are plenty of opportunities for (mixed sex) open competitions and non competitive physical activity so transition need not mean the end of sport for male bodied people.

Also generally if one believes that there is a strong argument for something it helps to actually make that argument, rather than just stating that there is one.

There is a strong argument that input from those people who believe in sex segregation but also that TWAW will really help.

No. There isn't. The thing with slippery slopes is that you slip down them.

Show some bloody respect for sportswomen and defend them robustly or don't bother.

I'm just picturing the committee members innocently, optimistically assuming that they've provided not only what's needed but what will make everyone happy. And then imagining their utter bafflement when TRAs start accusing them of making trans people want to commit suicide.

"Don't say this...I'm not telling you what to say though"

OK then!

Last I heard the committee organizing the Tokyo Olympics was making plans for gender neutral toilets in addition to men's and women's toilets at each venue, so I full expect TRAs to kick off about that at some point.

That has just scrambled my brain. I thought "oh but they'll say they are for the non binaries", but then that was swiftly followed by thinking "which category would non binaries, agender etc compete in? Apart from the Oppression Olympics event, naturally.

But you can do this without saying TWAM.

Why would we want to do that? It undermines the clarity of the point being made, tip toeing around biological facts.

Annadale I agree - which is why it’s important to argue from sex-based differences. You can’t have sex segregation without acknowledging sex. But you can do this without saying TWAM.

I don't want to derail the thread with pettiness but I will just leave this here Dadjoke

But don’t call them men

I am not telling people what to say or what not to say

I believe there are paid moderators who have a job to do. I haven't had a deletion yet but I'm happy to take my chances with the people who are doing the job they are paid to do.

An argument that transwomen are advantaged by their physiology, without relating it to any other category description, doesn't work. It simply runs into the 'all elite sports people have unusual physiology' argument, which is perfectly true. The reason that women and non-women need to be segregated in sports classes is that there is an 11% category advantage in being non-female which can't be controlled for any other way. What needs to be said often is that it is not insulting to say that someone is male or female. It is an unemotional category description that should upset nobody and should not have any other implications. It does, of course, which is why feminism exists. But it's a plain fact and sport usually works on facts.

There is a strong argument that input from those people who believe in sex segregation but also that TWAW will really help.

Could you point us towards those people who believe in sex segregation but also that TWAW? Where are they?

Last I heard the committee organizing the Tokyo Olympics was making plans for gender neutral toilets in addition to men's and women's toilets at each venue, so I full expect TRAs to kick off about that at some point. In terms of crowd reaction shocked silence is what I'd expect if someone obviously male wins a female event. It's the sponsors who could bring about change fastest, if they wanted to.

Sorry- hit post accidentally. I am not suggesting giving up the fight in a broader sense. I am suggesting fighting this battle without tying the two issues together. It’s quite possible to argue trans women should not compete in women’s events without starting from TWAM. There is a strong argument that input from those people who believe in sex segregation but also that TWAW will really help.

Again, does anyone have a suggestion who we could contact about this?

I am not telling people what to say or what not to say

NotBadConsidering

Plus how would you blind the study? It would be in the best interests of any trans women participating in a study to underplay their ability: lift less, run slower, etc. They would need to be blinded to the outcome which is very difficult.

My first thought when I read what I quoted in a post upthread: Weatherly noted that she hadn't won every race since making the switch - finishing second to Rawson at an event in Canterbury earlier in the month. was that of course Weatherly finished second to Rawson in a race - had to make it look like it was the result of hard work when the inevitable winning started, and not the result of an unfair advantage.

Fast forward to Tokyo Olympics. I think there is potential for there to be audience reaction. For example if a transwoman won the womens 100 metres sprint I think there would be a big reaction. I think the fact it is being held in Japan means there is likely to be a politer audience in the stadium. If the 100 womens metres had been won by a transwoman in London I think to be honest there would be a chant of Cheat Cheat.

You have to think about the money and power. The Olympic organisation already seems to have accepted transwomen. I dont know who are the big powers within it and how their views will pan out coming up to the next Olympics.

The other important point is that the sponsors hold a lot of influence because they pay for most of it apart from TV rights. There are 10 longer term sponsors: Coca Cola, Visa, Bridgestone, Samsung, Panasonic, Omega, Procter & Gamble (P&G), General Electric (GE), Dow, and Atos. These have been joined recently by Intel Alibaba and Toyota. McDonalds has stopped its sponsorship after the 2016 Olympics.

I don't know what the sponsors will think. I would think they would not want to be associated with 'cheating' But would want to be woke and connected with young people etc. They are not just as US dominated as I thought they would be . What are Japanese and Chinese attitudes to gender criticism? I haven't a clue.

I do think that after watching for car crash and not being able to believe what they are seeing reasons, people will stop watching womens sport events as there will be no point. Women will have no chance. A lot of the public will I think say why bother dividing women and men at all - there is no point.

I think the sponsors will care a lot if people start to switch off

Maybe Sarah should stand up straight.

The Liberal Democrat LGBT activist Sarah Brown has lost 5cm in height since starting hormone treatment, according to Sarah Brown.

nellodee

Plus how would you blind the study? It would be in the best interests of any trans women participating in a study to underplay their ability: lift less, run slower, etc. They would need to be blinded to the outcome which is very difficult.