Open Letter to The IOC regarding transwoman Tiffany Abreu

There is no "different definition of women". It's nonsensical appropriation by males.

So that's two ways that your post was silly and didn't make sense. HTH

Should be TWAM. Not TWAW.

andyoldlabour I have no idea why you are addressing this to me. I know perfectly well what sex-based differences there are. Humans are dimorphic. Sport should be sex segregated except where they can compete in an equal footing.

Where you are wrong is that no sane, educated person thinks trans women are not women. It’s a simple category confusion women (sex) vs women (gender). Plenty of sane, educated people (way more than there are transgender people) have a different definition of woman. I am not supporting that view, merely pointing out that calling your opponents Ill-educated and mentally ill will get you absolutely nowhere.

Sorry - should have been “women’s categry”

TWAW so they shouldn’t be allowed to compete in the men’s category.

WTF are you on about?

@DadJoke,

A quick biology lesson for you:

Transwomen ARE men who identify as women, but they do not function as women because they are biologically different. They have very different physiology - larger frames, bigger, denser bones, stronger sinews and ligaments, larger heart, larger lungs, more efficient cardio vascular capability.
Women can nurture an embryo/foetus inside their womb for up to nine months and then give birth to a child, after which they can feed that child.
Whilst transwomen may believe that they are women, no sane, educated person on this planet shares their belief.

It might make sense. It won’t work!

LOL that makes absolutely no sense, does it?

dadjoke your arguments and tactics are about as coherent as the TRAs. You would play right into their gender nonsense.

I cannot help but wonder if that is the plan since you seem so keen to convince us to give up the word and meaning of woman.

Truth needs to be plainly spoken. Women don't need to manipulate or spin anything.

We need to push back even harder on TWAW, NOT concede a mythical "gender" category while simultaneously trying to claim that it's because of their sex that it isn't fair for them to compete against women. It won't hold any water.

I'm fucked off with this tactics bollocks.

Stating the truth here. Won't be changing cos DadJoke has an important argument he can't tell us about.

its nonsense to pretend that we can acknowledge that transwomen are in any genuine sense women, and still be able to hold the clear and fair line as to why they shouldn't compete against women.

This. The bottom line is 'a man is a woman if he says so, so much so that look, they can compete in women's races and that's fair and fine because WOMAN'. That's the crux of it. It's about proving the extent of how real that asserted womanhood is and witnessing compliance and validation of that assertion. Anything that is reserved for women becomes a boundary that has to be broken in the name of achieving that proof. It's fundamentally about power and control.

Which is why no sensible discussion around wider issues and fairness matter, and why no other offered solutions that meet the actual needs for everyone are considered anything but transphobia.

We cannot get sucked into debating fantasy. We have to continue to force the debate onto the field of reality. If we’re called transphobic by the IOC, so be it. We’re not speaking to them. We’re speaking to the populace, the vast majority of whom actually do live in the field of reality.

This

Tactics are all very well, but its nonsense to pretend that we can acknowledge that transwomen are in any genuine sense women, and still be able to hold the clear and fair line as to why they shouldn't compete against women.

If you do this strange half-light acceptance that TWAW, while focusing on how to eliminate the advantage they have over women, then you will inevitably descend into minutiae of hormone levels which can be gamed and manipulated.

The reason they have an advantage is because they are men, and any attempt to obscure that will do nothing but expose you to as much ridicule as anyone who denies the facts on the Anti-woman side.

Truth is nothing to run from in this debate.

My argument is that it’s sex, not gender in this instance which is important.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

The reason for this conflict ever having arisen was the GRA setting a precedent that it was ever possible for a man to become a woman. The discussions in the Scotland census discussion with MPs have shown the only way to untangle this mess is to completely separate sex as a concept from gender, because to do otherwise creates chaos that negatively affects everyone and everything. So appealing to women to be kind and fudge a bit on what 'woman' means is not something I'm prepared to compromise on, and thanks for sharing your concerns but I'll worry about who I get to listen to me regarding my rights and my principles.

Transwomen are transwomen. I cannot be a transwoman, ever, no matter what I do. I was not born male. Transwoman is an identity that should be celebrated, protected, valued, something to be proud of, and I'll very gladly fight for that. But the whole basis of this mess over sport is the same one that is the basis of every problem with this ideology. The insistence that everyone comply with the lie that a man has become a woman. There isn't any nice way to slide around it, and the TRA lobby will be the first to tell you so.

Sorry have not read all the thread. But I had to comment here. DadJoke 13:54 You can believe that trans women are women (gender) while accepting that sex segregation is right.

But women is not a gender, it is a sex. And if transwomen are entering sports competitions with an altered birth certificate, then in law they are women and can compete as women. So tell me how it helps to say TWAW?

Look, I’ll write up an objection to send to show what I mean. I am not trying to be obtuse.

I am not saying “trans women are not women is transphobic” I am saying it will be dismissed as such!

Juells
You've lost me completely now. That's what everyone else on this thread has been saying, while you've been insisting that the sex of trans athletes should never be mentioned.

No! Their natal sex should be referred to without saying they are not women. The original letter we are discussing manages this.

happydappy2
Male born but for a multitude of reasons chose to present as their idea of a woman.

Indeed. "their idea of a woman"

Male born people have an advantage in elite sport because of their sex. My argument is that it’s sex, not gender in this instance which is important.

You've lost me completely now. That's what everyone else on this thread has been saying, while you've been insisting that the sex of trans athletes should never be mentioned.

The reason that you should avoid saying trans women are not women in this context is because, fair or not, that will result in the people who decide dismissing you as transphobic, and any other evidence your present will be ignored.

Male born people have an advantage in elite sport because of their sex. My argument is that it’s sex, not gender in this instance which is important. So whatever your definition of woman, trans women should be excluded. This does not mean giving ground on your core beliefs.

You might be happy to lose the battle to win the war. I am not.