Open Letter to The IOC regarding transwoman Tiffany Abreu

[]www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination]]

“The Equality Act 2010 says that you must not be discriminated against because you are transsexual, when your gender identity is different from the gender assigned to you when you were born. For example:

a person who was born female decides to spend the rest of his life as a man
In the Equality Act it is known as gender reassignment. All transsexual people share the common characteristic of gender reassignment.

To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any specific treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender. This is because changing your physiological or other gender attributes is a personal process rather than a medical one.”

fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/ also covers it.

Where is gender identity in law? Gender reassignment is protected in law, and it's assumed that gender identity is a factor in proceeding with gender reassignment. But it's implied rather than stated.

I read some of DadJoke’s initial comments but wasn’t able to reply. I haven’t been able to read the full thread but I just wanted to say that I think I understand the sentiment behind what he is saying. I want to influence the law. I don’t want to still be talking about this on mumsnet FWR in a couple of years while things are getting worse. I think having a very blunt and uncaring message will not win over people in power.

It is true that most of the population don’t believe TWAW, but these are not the people making the decisions. Many people are too apathetic to make their views known to their councillors and MPs, or to lobby companies and other organisations, or they are too busy trying to cope with life. The people in power are careful not to get that stain (as they see it) of ‘bigot’ as that will make them an outcast in the corridors of power and the trendy places that they like to be welcome.

If you try to force people to say TWANW publicly, they will not, whatever they believe. There are ways of conveying the message honestly without being too stark about it. FairPlay for women often talk about male-bodied. I prefer biological male/female. I don’t believe TWAW but they are quite fixated on the label and so when trying to influence people new to the debate I will not go down the path that means they will brand me a bigot and not listen to anything further I have to say. Instead I focus on underlying biology and physiology.

VickyEadie I have very carefully not said one way or another whether I think TWAW. You can read psychology and medical journals yourself or pick up references from the wiki article about gender identity. The fact is, I don’t think saying TWAM helps in this context is the issue. That was my intention with the draft letter. Do you disagree with it?

“Ensuring that men cannot compete with women no matter what they've done to their bodies or how they make themselves look.“

I mean practically? Who do we lobby?

Your approach is:
Persuade the entire world that TWAM. Gender identity is enshrined in law, so we’d need to amend the equality act and the GRA. Once everyone is on board with that idea you can use your TWAM argument on the IOC. It sounds pretty unlikely.

My suggested is to emphasise the reality of sex differences, and the importance of sex segregation where it matters. That’s a teeny bit more likely to work than overturning decades of national and international law, the stated positions of most medical, sports and equality organisations.

why are you asking me? I can either give what I believe the other side’s answer is and be (correctly) accused of thread derailing and mansplaining or keep quiet and be accused of cowardice. It’s all about gender identity. If you don’t think that’s a thing (which you won’t) you will never accept any trans arguments.

I ask because you clearly - from your previous comments that we shouldn't challenge the notion that TWAW - think that they are. I wondered why you thought that and thought you must have some notion of something a TW has in common with me.

"Gender identity" being all you can come up with, what's that, then? How does mine manifest itself and how is it like a transwoman's?

What do you think the most effective way to support sex segregation in sport?

Ensuring that men cannot compete with women no matter what they've done to their bodies or how they make themselves look.

VickyEadie why are you asking me? I can either give what I believe the other side’s answer is and be (correctly) accused of thread derailing and mansplaining or keep quiet and be accused of cowardice. It’s all about gender identity. If you don’t think that’s a thing (which you won’t) you will never accept any trans arguments. If I even state the argument I will need to use the other side’s language and that you will find insulting.

What do you think the most effective way to support sex segregation in sport? Do you object to the wording of my letter?

I see DadJoke hasn't been able to reply to my question:

I'm a woman - please tell me what a transwoman has in common with me that they don't have in common with men.

"Plenty of sane, educated people (way more than there are transgender people) have a different definition of woman."

I'd restate that as "plenty of sane, educated people are currently lying through their teeth about what a woman is, because they've been convinced that it's the right thing to do".

What most people here are suggesting is that we explain to them why it is not in fact the right thing to do.

AnnaDale I know. But I stand by it and I am not trying to please TRAs. And thank you.

Nothing wrong with that DadJoke.

Go on, try it. Do you think you won't be called transphobic by using that template? I bet you a tenner you're wrong.

Erishkigal Iol! Of course people differ in what a woman is or we wouldn’t be having this discussion! They differ to such an extent that the respective terminology is considered insulting.

People with an agenda pretend there is another definition, shored up by pomo individualism, sophistry and magical thinking. Everyone deep down knows exactly what a woman is, and power relations play out exactly as expected.

Here is my template.

Dear IOC,

Trans women should be excluded from women’s sports because they were born male, regardless of their current gender identity. This is because most sports rely on physical attributes in which male born people have a large advantage, even with low levels of testosterone. Sports are segregated by sex for this very reason. Permitting trans women to compete in the women’s category will eventually result in trans women entirely dominating the women’s category, to the detriment of women not born male, hugely disincentiving the latter from competing. [Data on relative performance; examples of transwomen dominating events.]

Love
DadJoke

I think the clue is in the hilarious joke name. Probably not worth engaging with in future.

It's all about derailing conversations. Women mustn't be allowed to talk 🤣

"a different definition of woman"

What a very interesting point of view.

Where's the recipe for mince pie gin again? Should one put cranberries in it?

Where you are wrong is that no sane, educated person thinks trans women are not women. It’s a simple category confusion women (sex) vs women (gender).

I'm a woman. Please tell me what a transwoman has in common with me that they don't have in common with men.

When the GF can satisfactorily answer this question, I might take anything he says remotely seriously for a second.

it's clearly goady fuckery

Either that or illogical nonsense. "a different definition of woman" ! One that includes 'having a penis', no doubt.

I still can't make head nor tail of what you're on about. But since it's clearly goady fuckery, I shall cease bothering to try at this point.

Dear IOC,

TWAM so they shouldn’t compete in the women’s category.

Love
Mumsnet

Excellent. We have a simple template to work from there.

This whole 'It won't work' thing is absolutely fucking ridiculous. It's the entire argument. Why would you exclude women from women's sports? You haven't the slightest reason to.

Transwomen should not be excluded from women's sport because 'they are better than other women'. Because that is entirely arbitrary, and there will always be women who have a skill or physical advantage over other women.

The only reason to exclude transwomen from women's sport is because they are of a different physical order to women. TWAM, and it's because of this that they have an overwhelming advantage over women as a class.

I do not care what philosophical bollocks anyone thinks about gender identity, it's entirely fucking irrelevant to the physical realities involved in sport.

Where you are wrong is that no sane, educated person thinks trans women are not women. It’s a simple category confusion women (sex) vs women (gender). Plenty of sane, educated people (way more than there are transgender people) have a different definition of woman.

Hilarious. Go on, admit it, you're having a larf at our expense.

Where you are wrong is that no sane, educated person thinks trans women are not women. It’s a simple category confusion women (sex) vs women (gender).

I'm a woman. Please tell me what a transwoman has in common with me that they don't have in common with men.

Erishkigal Iol! Of course people differ in what a woman is or we wouldn’t be having this discussion! They differ to such an extent that the respective terminology is considered insulting.

Second attempt!

Dear IOC,

TWAM so they shouldn’t compete in the women’s category.

Love
Mumsnet

Job done!

Goddess save me, it's like trying to explain something to a blancmange.

Dear IOC

TWAW. Obvs. But I don't think they should compete in the women's category because for some unknown reason they tend to be stronger and bigger than most other women.

Yours

DadJoke