Open Letter to The IOC regarding transwoman Tiffany Abreu

dadjoke

I wrote what your letter was basically going to be saying in response to you presuming to write one for MN. Before you added your draft text which didn't really add anything It would be nice if you could acknowledge my gently mocking version and either grasp the point or refute it.

DadJoke denying the reality of quantifiable physical differences in biology between male-born and female-born people, and conflating sex with gender is the equivalent of claiming that a white person wearing 'black face' is black while pretending that slavery wasn't too bad.

Which is the equivalent of claiming that a white person wearing 'black face' is black while pretending that slavery wasn't too bad.
Sorry, I am not following your line of reasoning at all. What did I say that implied that?

I would say they are undermining women’s sports by denying the reality of quantifiable physical differences in biology between male-born and female-born people, and conflating sex with gender.

Which is the equivalent of claiming that a white person wearing 'black face' is black while pretending that slavery wasn't too bad.

It's just that some how (maybe because sexism is the water we swim in? maybe because it doesn't disadvantage men so obviously? maybe because left wing people are just as bigoted as everyone else ?) that is the 'progressive' view point.

This isn't a sitting on the fence issue. It's one thing to believe that some people suffer from gender dysphoria and that people shouldn't suffer discrimination because of how they present themselves, quite another to believe that trans women actually are women.

merrymouse I would say they are undermining women’s sports by denying the reality of quantifiable physical differences in biology between male-born and female-born people, and conflating sex with gender.

Dadjoke, in retrospect I can see that comparing the holocaust and slavery to sport might seem a little jarring. I should have written:

"Councils, Children in Need and Comic Relief are currently funding groups who go into schools and tell children that women's sport shouldn't exist, because biological women don't exist ".

Your use of the holocaust undermines the currency of language.

No it doesn't. As I very clearly said I am comparing them to people who try to generalise the effect of the holocaust to minimise it's effect on Jewish people, e.g. Trump when he talked about the Holocaust without mentioning Jews.

Trump also claims to be mortally offended by footballers kneeling specifically to avoid dealing with why they are kneeling.

I am very, very comfortable comparing TRAs to Trump.

Minimise the impact of discrimination felt by a particular group by pretending that they don't exist. Call them bigots and claim to be the victim yourself when they point out examples of discrimination.

Being a key board holocaust denier is not the same as sending people to concentration camps, but it is very similar to denying the existence of biological sex.

Ereshkigal they have two examples, one transman and one transwoman. Things are bad enough without inventing conspiracy theories.

merrymouse No, TRAs are not Nazis, and this is not the holocaust. Your use of the holocaust undermines the currency of language. Not only that, it’s a poor analogy. It’s like all the overblown threats of child suicide the TRAs use.

What, specifically, do you object to in the sample letter? Do you think it would be better if I added “PS TWAM”?

andyoldlabour I was asked a question and I cut and pasted the relevant section from the EHRC website. What in earth do you think my motivation is? Did you agree with my letter template?

@Iused2BanOptimist,

Thanks for that link to the Bleacherreport. It was still pretty much the same old drivel, feel sorry for the person who cannot understand why the hateful people want to stop them running - except that to the majority it is blindingly obvious.
There is another athlete at the same school called Terry Miller who is also trans.

abcnews.go.com/GMA/News/transgender-athletes-speak-parents-petition-change-policy-compete/story?id=56071191

I will not go down the path that means they will brand me a bigot and not listen to anything further I have to say. Instead I focus on underlying biology and physiology.

If somebody was trying to spread the idea in schools that the holocaust didn't really affect Jewish people or that slavery wasn't really a big deal, would you worry about whether those people thought you were a bigot?

Councils, Children in Need and Comic Relief are currently funding groups who go into schools and tell children that women's sport shouldn't exist.

I know we are all so used to discrimination that it's sometimes difficult to recognise, but let's not forget that it's less than 100 years since women could vote on equal terms with men (in the UK - a lot less in many parts of Europe), and less than 50 years since the introduction of equalities legislation.

I'm all for sticking to the facts, but I'm afraid that sometimes people are just going to call you a bigot because they themselves are a bigot. (See 'All lives matter' in the US).

The GRA 2004 specifically allows that:

(1)A body responsible for regulating the participation of persons as competitors in an event or events involving a gender-affected sport may, if subsection (2) is satisfied, prohibit or restrict the participation as competitors in the event or events of persons whose gender has become the acquired gender under this Act.
(2)This subsection is satisfied if the prohibition or restriction is necessary to secure—
(a)fair competition, or
(b)the safety of competitors,

This should be a link to the article.

bleacherreport.com/articles/2810857-andraya-yearwood-knows-she-has-the-right-to-compete

Andraya Yearwood has to run harder to compete against women.

twitter.com/bleacherreport/status/1074759823776980994?s=21

To be fair that's the EHRC's wording. Agree it's very telling. As is the government guidance on accommodation of trans people in the workplace (written largely by Gendered intelligence) where they mention using opposite sex single sex spaces, in which they use an FTM to illustrate. Surprise.

@DadJoke,

"a person who was born female decides to spend the rest of his life as a man"

How strange that you chose that, when we know that the vast majority of transgender people are men who decide to identify as women. I think that the reason for your presence on this thread is very obvious.

I think you misunderstand Sharpe's argument, DadJoke.

It is transwoman / transwomen, not trans woman / trans women.
The difference is important DadJoke

See Alex Sharpe’s opinion (and other interesting legal views) here www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/19/gender-recognition-act-reforms-six-legal-views-transgender-debate

Why would people with a GRC not be protected under "gender reassignment"? It has nothing to do with "sex". So they would be protected under their legal "gender" on the GRC under sex (wrongly imo) and also under gender reassignment.

materialist the EHCR makes the point that the language is outdated, but that term does not invalidate the second para I quoted. That and the GRA act are a complete mess; there is a compelling argument that trans people with a GRC are their actual sex on their birth certificate, which would mean they are not trans under the law. A court case or better definitions of sex and gender identity in law are urgently required.

That's guidance, not legislation. The Equality Act says nothing about gender identity, only about gender reassignment. You could undertake gender reassignment for shits and giggles if you want, whatever your gender identity is, it would still give you legal protection under the Equality Act.