Men and creepy banter.

Ugh, that case, and I'm including the fact that the judge was told off but not officially sanctioned in any way and the other judge included a "don't publicly criticize judges because that's bad for justice, by which I mean the status of my profession" bit in his statement.

Oh god this brings back memories. I was 18 when I worked in a pub and had men in their fifties ask me the last time I'd have sex, take me piss out of me when I wouldn't answer (I'd never had sex at the point), make comments to other people about my boobs. It was pretty rank. I didn't even think to complain about it as it was 10 years ago because sadly I just thought it was normal.

I've thought that before, too. The (BS) idea that girls naturally mature faster than boys sounds sexist towards males, and it kind of is, but I've known it to be an excuse for men preferring women much younger than they are, as well as excusing very self centered and obnoxious behavior from grown men.

TheMatriarch--That's some serious sexual harassment your daughter's been going through. I know some places of employment that would never tolerate it. I had a friend who fired a male employee who joked about a group of female co-workers saying,"These are all my hoes". I thought firing was possibly extreme in this case, but you know that manager wouldn't tolerate any sexist nonsense like what goes on at the pub.

Oh my God. I mis-remembered - the girl was only 9

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/no-angel-sex-abuse-case-man-jailed-court-of-appeal-criticises-judge-for-his-unacceptable-comment-1487937.html

I agree there does seem to be this tacit assumption that what is essentially these older children have an adults understanding. I think there is something mildly sinisister in the presumption girls mature quicker than boys.

God yes.

I remember a Judge once summing up that a girl of 12-13 was "no angel" - as though having to navigate a sinister adult world as a child gives the poor kid fully-informed adult agency. It's so bloody twisted.

DD1 who admittedly has no problem sticking up for herself will glare and say "sexist language like that isn't acceptable nowadays" managing to give a backhanded insult alluding to their old age as well as politely telling them off.

It's very difficult for young women of that age to do or say anything, even when they know it's completely inappropriate behaviour from the men. If she can't bring herself to say anything (although I support the suggestion that she questions what she's just heard - "What did you say?" or "Did you really just say....?"), I recommend a few other options.

1. A long, long stare. With no smiling. And then no comment.
2. A long look up and down, to communicate that she is creeped out and revolted by them.

I agree there does seem to be this tacit assumption that what is essentially these older children have an adults understanding. I think there is something mildly sinisister in the presumption girls mature quicker than boys.

Young girls are essentially boxed in and can perfectly innocently follow fashion and trends that objectify, and now are somehow a 100% responsible for everything that follows that.

As far as I recall I don't recall ever hearing the term girls will be girls. So where is the term that guarantees a full childhood for girls, and the freedom to make a few youthful mistakes as they find their feet like boys will be boys implies?

Men often assume that the young women understand this is why they were hired and therefore know that their objectification is a tacit condition of employment.

That's no excuse.

They know women need money to survive, and they know that working at a bar isn't something women do for fun.

Men who think that the young female bar staff are prostitutes and treat them accordingly are no better than punters.

Only that they don't even have the decency to pay for the prostitution they feel entitled to. Do you think they think women should prostitute themselves for minimum wage?

Its depressing that young female bar staff are often/usually hired as 'eye candy' for the customers to encourage them to drink, stay and spend their money. Men often assume that the young women understand this is why they were hired and therefore know that their objectification is a tacit condition of employment.

Often men (I reckon this is because of the sexualisation of girls/media) believe young women are not naive and are actually aware of the bigger picture in the way that a middle age person would be, and that they enter into all this knowingly and willingly.

I wish there was a way of getting the message out there that physical maturity does not tally up with wisdom or awareness and that young women have absolutely no idea about women's societal condition and each one learns the hard way - through distress and trauma.

This is your daughter's wellbeing, trust in men, respect for her feelings and boundary setting that you seem to be allowing to be walked all over.

Not sure I care much for her trust in men not being eroded.

Those are men, and they are doing those kind of things, and they have known her all her life. They aren't freaky exceptions to the norm, they are the norm.
She'd do well not to trust them, or any other man who hasn't earnt her trust.

On a societal level these are the behaviours that should be called out

Yet just above this you explain why this doesn't happen time and time again. In your case, it's a small village where everyone knows everyone.
Everyone has their own story, others will have their own reasons for not calling these men out and at the end of the day they get away with it.
Not a criticism of you, by the way, just interesting these men continue to operate in this way, because there are a myriad reasons for not stopping them.

Trouble is, law is only as good as it's enforcement, and in rather a lot of places in Britain that doesn't exist. Employee rights don't exist. I know where you're coming from op and it's sickening. I bet she needs a decent reference to get another job too?

That's right, you can't bring a claim for unfair dismissal unless you've been employed for two years, but there's no qualifying period for discrimination claims.

I realise OP that taking legal action is probably not a practicable solution, but I wanted to point out that what's happening is actually unlawful (as well as being offensive and degrading).

And as for people thinking she's a trouble maker for not taking shit.
Sod it. She knows what's right and wrong, knowing that will keep her more safe.
Good that she's not too scared to kick up a fuss when needed.
I don't take shit either, now I'm in my mid 30s, I wish I had took less shit when I was younger..
Now I'm a feminist. I don't take shit. I don't let men talk their vile shit in my vicinity. If I hear something that needs calling out I will call it.
It makes other people uncomfortable. So what.
I've been called a feminazi, frigid, man hater. So what?
I know I don't hate men. I love some men. I'm raising a man, mostly alone. I'm not frigid either, the difference is the sex I have is on my terms.
I would rather be called a feminazi than sweet cheeks, big tits or give us a smile love.

I feel for you op, I can see you have been put in a difficult position.
Good luck to your daughter finding a better job, even another pub type place, like I said not all of them are like this.
As for constructive dismissal, I believe although I may be wrong, employees have no rights in that sort of scenario before they have worked somewhere 2years..
Understandably you wouldn't want to be taking on a legal battle over your dds weekend job in any case..
It is disgusting and sad that this is still going on.
This really is a job for men to sort out, I would be horrified and disgusted to know if my ds was making comments or pinging bra straps, I guess I have a lot of hard conversations to have over the coming years.
I'm sorry for your daughter. At least she knows its wrong.

Men expose their genitals by pissing on the street all the time. I expect they see this as the same disgusting thing.

I'm sorry OP, but you are doing your daughter a disservice here. You need to step in on her behalf and talk to her employer. She is 16 years old and you are still responsible for her well-being and her being treated legally while at work.

Yes, she will learn to fight her own battles as she gets older - but you need to set the example and this is the perfect chance.

Go and see her manager tomorrow and point out the law on protecting employees from sexual harassment. Tell him you will not hesitate in supporting your daughter in a case against his business for constructive dismissal if she is forced to quit due to this behaviour by his customers (which he appears to condone).

I am amazed you haven't done this already. Why are you showing her this is just normal? This should be zero tolerance and who cares if the locals kick up a stink. This is your daughter's wellbeing, trust in men, respect for her feelings and boundary setting that you seem to be allowing to be walked all over. Show her support and do what she is too frightened to do.

At school there was a boy who would jokingly pretend to choke girls, because that’s what they like (no prizes for guessing where that’s come from) - he’s the one person in my life that I’ve had really bad vibes from, and have asked dd to never be alone with him!

OMG I've just noticed that bit! Have you seen the recent threads regarding choking (and sex games gone wrong). That is very worrying. Is he still at school? He really needs reporting.

Both male and female cleaners operate in this area.
I've seen that quite commonly in service stations, along with female cleaners wandering in and out of the men's.

I think that's quite different. They are employed as loo cleaners for one thing,not bar/waitress also topping up loo roll and hand towels. More importantly service station loos are quite big and public. The pub loo is quite a small space, two cubicles and small urinal/ hand wash area. I wouldn't want to be stuck in that small space with a peeing stranger.

I hope your dd finds another better job soon.

I worked in a restaurant/pub at her age. I had a customer regularly touch my bum. I felt unable to complain. Now I would.

Pub work is very hard, encourage her to look for a better job.

If you are ever in the pub and hear such a comment, please do say "you've knoen my daughter all her life, it's creepy that you make comments about her body."

I think some men have no fucking idea just how creepy they are!

OP, this is sexual harassment. If I understand the law correctly if your daughter complains to her employer about it and he does nothing to stop it she could bring a claim of sex discrimination against him. There's no limit to the amount of compensation that can be awarded in discrimination claims and it costs nothing to start one. Might be worth pointing all this out to him.

In fact trying to behave as something more than a sex-obsessed dick is viewed as pretentious in our culture oh yeah, they can't go against the herd, they'd be labelled a "poof" at best. Literally the only way to escape vicious misogyny is to be so alpha you rise above it, and most blokes can't manage that. They play along at being "tamed" by the missus, but when the cat's away...
Incidentally if anyone on here has let their bloke go on a stag do in eastern Europe, get tested. He absolutely has visited a prostitute. I promise you.
#notmyNigel
Yes your Nigel. He bloody told me.