Why my transgender son dosent want self ID

Women (espacially those with first-hand experience of it) recognise male-pattern abuse, coersive control etc & misogyny.
This can be seen in some males regardless of their gender-identity.

We are sorry you don't understand what " meaningful transition" means, Langcleg. People have outlined that enough for the meaning to be clear.

What are you talking to me for?

Rowantrees, I know Debbie and she is a great advocate for TS people. And certainly is TS. I am not saying that if you marry a woman and have children and transition later in life that you cannot be TS or have GD. I do not think that at all.

What I said was that if you have lived and worked up until your 50s or 60s as a man and been a husband and father for many of those years you will see and experience life differently than if you transition before you start your life (say at 19) and knowingly forego the chance to have a family (which is a huge sacrifice for a TS person - especially in days when there was no way to preserve fertility as now) and then worked from day one in society as a woman, not a man, and only ever had relationships and have married a man.

Not saying one is better or more trans. Not at all. Just that such very different life experiences over much of a life are going to have an impact on the person. And that it might explain the different desire to seem to want to settle down and live a quiet life versus being more openly active. That's all.

You absolutely cant put transsexual and transgender into the same pot

Nobody is saying that there aren't discrete populations here. But if you're arguing that one group of males within the umbrella should be entitled to women's spaces, rights and protections while the others shouldn't, and - surprise, surprise - the group you think should have that entitlement includes you, you're going to find that plenty of women say no, not you either.

Do you think women's consent applies to you?

apologies, Times Letter!

Sex has an important necessity of statement here and in the biological sense is inarguable with TS. So it is just something to accept and live with because words have power and are being used rather viciously by the trans community.

Its true Lass

this was from the Times article:

"We seek to find common cause with women against male violence and we condemn the threats, harassment and intimidation of women who argue that sex-based protections are vital in a society still punctuated by sexism. Women are oppressed because of their sex, not some metaphysical gender identity. We are concerned that women are being dehumanised as “TERFs” (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) in order for abusive males to unleash misogynistic rhetoric and violent abuse with impunity.

We call for respectful discussion and debate, and for transgender rights activists to distance themselves from physical violence and attacks on free speech carried out in their name."

We are sorry you don't understand what " meaningful transition" means, Langcleg. People have outlined that enough for the meaning to be clear.

It was my post, not Lang

Its a genuine question asked respectfully based on having read an article which was recommended.

I don't think 'the general population' do know at all.

No-one is obliged to answer of course.
Please dont misrepresent me Kay

Cantgetridofthekids. I think once you get used to the reasons why women on here feel as strongly as they do about the appropriation that trans ideology seems to relish and the obvious risk to women's rights and safety that it poses you will come to appreciate the need for a rather blanket approach. There is huge misogyny out there from trans activism, often I suspect unconscious. It has to be called out. We just need to accept that. Indeed we should call it out too when we see it.

Sex has an important necessity of statement here and in the biological sense is inarguable with TS. So it is just something to accept and live with because words have power and are being used rather viciously by the trans community. There has to be a fight back.

In my long experience of living in society as a woman I find it is easy to accommodate that reality underpinning your life without it compromising who you are day to day. This is a disconnect the trans activists seem to have and never overcome.

Most of the time you are you and definitions are not as important as they are on here when fighting to right wrongs. So it is less that people do not see the differences or over focus on the similarities. It is that they need to emphasise biology when it matters.

For instance, you cannot discuss the total absurdity and horrible danger of housing a male sex offender who says he is a woman into the company of vulnerable women - not without stressing biology. There are times when that matters and we have to be OK with that.

Rowantrees, I do not know what specifically the dictionary defines as surgery, obviously.

You misunderstand, I read the article you recommended and am asking the question based on it, not the dictionary definitions it used.

It seems key to talk of 'meaningful transition' but I don't understand what this means.

What I do notice is a difference between those who transition later in life and have lived and worked as men for long periods, often rising up the ladder that way and so interacted with women as men. Like Caitlyn Jenner.

Caitlin Jenner has had medical treatment though (re the article you linked with definition)

Debbie Hayton talked movingly on the radio last week about how she was glad she didn't transition earlier in life so she could father her children.

I'm genuinely trying to understand what is meant.

Rowantrees, I do not know what specifically the dictionary defines as surgery, obviously.

The GRC does not insist on GRS. In the view of virtually every TS person who has had this that I have discussed this with - it should. We tend to think anyone not wanting this cannot have GD and GD is the supposed definition for what makes a TS not a TG.

In the past before the GRA almost everybody who was diagnosed through the long process had GRS. And it was a necessary factor in getting documentation changed by doctors as they only really diagnosed as such if there were medical grounds why GRS would not be advised. And hospital wards would locate you in female spaces on the basis of your physiology. In essence if you had retained your penis they would not put you in with women. I would imagine that policy might well have changed in today's very different society.

Most TS I know would support a GRC only if you have GRS rule unless strong medical reasons not to exist. But I doubt this would ever be allowed under sterilization rules.

This is not because TS think GRS = you change sex - but because they tend to believe you have to need it to be TS.

I do not personally know any of the people you named in your post, so I would only be able to take their word that they are TS, not TG. I do not know how many have had psychotherapy, or been medically diagnosed, or had any GRS or even if they have a GRC or not. Most activists do not from what I have read. Numbers who do are tiny and the ones who got them tend to be the ones who just needed the documentation to settle down into society without hassle. Or needed them to marry long term partners.

This article from 2013 provides a lot of relevent background, some of those I have mentioned are interviewed:
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

I do not personally know any of the people you named in your post, so I would only be able to take their word that they are TS, not TG. I do not know how many have had psychotherapy, or been medically diagnosed, or had any GRS or even if they have a GRC or not. Most activists do not from what I have read. Numbers who do are tiny and the ones who got them tend to be the ones who just needed the documentation to settle down into society without hassle. Or needed them to marry long term partners.

What I do notice is a difference between those who transition later in life and have lived and worked as men for long periods, often rising up the ladder that way and so interacted with women as men. Like Caitlyn Jenner.

I do think life experience inevitably is going to make a difference to how they approach things, TS or not. And I also see that many of the active older trans have been married to women and had children and this also is a very different lifestyle over many years to those who are what Blanchard calls homosexual transsexuals - basically those who only ever have had relationships with men and are married to (often by the way heterosexual) men.

I have noticed that TS who are in stable relationships with men often transitioned much younger than those who are not (Blanchard found that too) do tend to be less interested in activism than those who have lived and worked as men and have women as partners.

I am not reading anything negative into that. It may well just be different life experiences and personalities bringing a continuation into their TS existence. But there do not seem to be many TS activists (if any) who transitioned young and long ago and have only ever lived and worked as an adult as a woman and have only had relationships and even married men. They might exist in the activist community - I do not know - but they seem under represented if they are, because such people certainly do exist.

It is a shame that they are seemingly amongst the least visible because the ones I know are very supportive of women and nearly always opposed to self ID.

putting themselves in the middle and getting abuse from all sides

I am transsexual myself (the medically transitioning and diagnosed gender dysphoria kind!) and only recently stuck my head above the parapet because I was so anti self identification. The abuse I got was unbeleivable. I felt both sides gang up on me and nothing I could say was right. Everything was twisted to suit.

I agree with everything lass has said.

You absolutely cant put transsexual and transgender into the same pot.....they are very different things.

lassupthebrew

I've read the article you've linked, thank you.

Can I ask, within the definition of transsexual, it cites:

Here is the OED (Oxford English Dictionary) entry:

:- A person who has undergone treatment in order to acquire the physical characteristics of the opposite sex.

The Cambridge English dictionary is similar

:- Used to describe a person who has had medical treatment to change their sex.

So this includes any medical /surgical intervention:
Plastic facial surgery which is described as 'feminisation' eg nose job, chin, ear pinning?
Breast implants?

Perhaps, but they are activists and most transsexuals, by default are not. That is part of the problem really.

Presumably though they are activists and transsexuals?

They have substantive differences to those who like, Jess Bradley (for example) seems to have done little more than identify as a non-binary transwomen.

I have only listed a few who have had and have extra-ordinary influence over the last 10+ years. There will be many others.

I am not diminishing the the threats and abuse. I think any woman who has been aware of the agressive tactics of some activists is acutuely aware of this, having faced the same.

I don't think its accurate or fair to draw a correllation between the possible 'abuse' from both sides.

Perhaps, but they are activists and most transsexuals, by default are not. That is part of the problem really.

There is not going to be unanimity within any group of people as you see on here. I said usually not always for that reason.

But there are as many transsexuals as the examples you cite out there on Twitter openly speaking similar things to what Hamster and I are saying here. And even more if you think about the ones who publicly supported recent letters in the Guardian and Times by Debbie and Miranda. Or who signed the petitions from artists and writers supporting women. Or the protest against Stonewall. Some signed all of those things.

So in terms of openly active there is a balance despite the huge disparity of numbers between transsexual and transgender populations.

The ones making the noise from both groups are a fraction of the half million TG let alone the 4910 TS. Most of whom never speak out openly and just get on with their lives.

There is a blog by some of them which seems in line with what Hamster and I are saying in here:

transsexualwomen1.blogspot.com/

It is the product of 14 of those TS with GRCs who are not identifying themselves in public and modest in number as most seem too scared of the repercussions on their family (as they are doing what most on here do - living family lives out there not campaigning).

I am pleasantly surprised how many different transsexuals have independently been peak transed by what the TG activists are saying and doing like ,many women have around the same time. It probably came as a surprise to many transsexuals as it did to women as few are part of any group structure or rights campaigners. Transsexuals were not asking any rights. T

This has been happening bit by bit for the last year or two on social media and sites like here. And most of them have huge incentives not to speak out because they are putting themselves in the middle and getting abuse from all sides. This includes threats to their jobs and of law suits for comments. I have seen both happen to them in recent weeks. Twitter is no friend to TS rational people who if we say what we say in here are called Nazis, traitors and worse.

Almost every week I see one of them quietly get back to their life and say they are too fearful of the consequences on their loved ones. It is unfair for many of them to put others in their lives into the midst of this mess. That is the risk taken by all who speak out against the mantra.

Hamster, yes, it is rather telling that the transsexuals who have done the most to alter our bodies to help us live as happily as possible are usually much more aware of the limitations of that transition and the realities of our biology than the transgender ideology that argues you can think yourself into changing sex. Sadly we know you cannot do so with science let alone magic

Is this the case though?
Prominant activists such as Sarah Brown, Stephen Whittle, India Willoughby, Sue Pascoe etc would presumably have more in common (physically) with the TS you're describing.
THey have done a great deal both in terms of policy, law, public perceptions & influence etc to insist on the absolute priority of their gender identity over sex.
Sarah Brown (Stonewall / Lib Dems) insists that she is not only a woman but female. So too Sue Pascoe (Conservatives / Channel 4 / Mesmac)

I'm sure there are many women who do actually change their maiden name (ugghh hate the maiden part)

Then don't use the term. It added nothing to the point you were making.

I'm sure there are many women and some men who do actually change their birth name/given name/family name [all of those terms cover it] because of certain memories from their childhood and possibly abusive parents/family

Fascinating insight on the last couple of pages. Thank you for that.

Well, okPedro, those women might then object to being referred to by their previous names. Names have psychological meanings for some people. No matter where you sit on the self-ID debate, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand why some people feel sensitive about being reminded of former names that they associate with unhappiness. To innocently proclaim ‘well, I don’t mind people calling me by my maiden-name’ is just unhelpful.

Just one small point, I'm sure there are many women who do actually change their maiden name (ugghh hate the maiden part) because of certain memories from their childhood and possibly abusive parents/family

Lass and Hamster, thank you, I'm loving your posts. X

Yes but cant the vast majority of people under the trans umbrella don’t have a medical transition and certainly never have any surgery. Why focus on trying to restrict medical transition? Why not retain the focus on keeping medical intervention to over 18s and on ensuring that women retain single sex spaces? Quite frankly it has nothing to do with me whether an adult takes hormones. It really doesn’t. Plus you have people with GD on here who say that medical transition has helped them. I think leave it to doctors to discuss with their patients.