School trans inclusive policy

4 types of loos:

Women (with disabled access and baby changing where relevant)
Men (ditto)
Easy access (ground floor, no steps, wide doors etc)
‘Whatever’ - stop making suck a bloody fuss and go for your pee without needing to tell the whole world.

Indeed. Having private facilities to change seems a common choice made by girls who identify as trans and who take PE with boys but don’t want to change with them.

It’s generally NOT the choice of boys who identify as girls , who seem to insist changing with the girls and refuse private facilities.

They want attention and validation, not privacy. And the extra joy of compelling others speech and enforcing their ideology on others.

So completely the oppposite of pupils with disabilities who may WANT to use private changing areas and don’t want to take away anyone else rights.

Funny how the fight for disabled access and facilities has been long and hard - but fay presto, the trans lobby have bullied, threatened and guilted their way along in a relatively short time.

It’s not private facilities they (or rather those advising them) want though. That would ‘other’ them.

Earlier in the year a school that had provided private facillities for a pupil with a 'trans' gender identity.

There was a public campaign headed up by a police officer Gina Dunham (?), their local TRA support group and online public pressure etc. (Think it was in Essex/ SE?)

It was framed as being akin to apartheid to provide separate private facilities for the male child who identified as a 'girl.

The campaign was successful and the school changed its policies.

fairytale

Yet again we see children and adults with disabilities or physical differences used as pawns or gotchas or as an identity to colonise.

We’ve seen on these boards in the last few weeks: suggestions that the genuine needs of a child with an additional need /disability/physical difference/injury prove that the identity of a trans person must be validated by allowing them intonopposote sex spaces. Moves to repurpose disabled toilets/change areas as gender neutral and for all, suggestions that intersex conditions prove that there are other sexes, or that sex is a spectrum, or that women without parts of their reproductive system aren’t women. Not to mention the wedge argument that disabled men are entitled to sex with prostitutes, and thus all sex work is fine.

It’s almost as though no one gives a toss unless they can be used to further their own agenda

It’s not private facilities they (or rather those advising them) want though. That would ‘other’ them.

They want people to look at them and say ‘oh yeah you’re a pretty girl, absolutely 100% woman, no maleness there oh no siree!’ 🤦🏽‍♀️. You are one of us (but better).

A child with a disability or additional needs who feels needs a bit of privacy should absolutely have a private facility for them - their own benefit and comfort. I’m sure they would give anything not to have to need this - or be able to say ‘I self ID as completely healthy’ and not need it. Some kids may be cool with their disability - but others may feel embarrassed or just not want people gawping or asking questions.

That’s it - I’m going to have Pulp in my bloody head all day again.

As a parent of a child with significant disabilities I am horrified by some of the comments on this thread from someone who says he/ she works in this field.

Offering separate changing facilities to a child with a stoma or a prosthetic limb is NOT to stop other children seeing them and being shocked/ upset, as you imply. It’s not about catering to some sort of prudishness on the part of other children.

In the case of a child with a stoma, its to give the child privacy to change their pouch and care for their skin in a place with private hand washing facilities. Most school toilets have private cubicles but communal hand washing facilities.

It’s about meeting the child’s medical needs and their need for privacy and dignity.

Many young children with a prosthetic limb are remarkably matter of fact about it and some will be perfectly happy to change with their peers. Of course schools will provide privacy if its needed by the child.

As a PP said Nobody with a stoma or an artificial limb threatens the safety, dignity, or privacy of their peers or erodes their boundaries, or teaches them that they can’t say no.

Most people here would not object to a trans identifying child being given private facilities, even though they personally may not see the need for it.

These are absolutely not the same issue. A penis (I shall call it a penis, not a willy, which sounds so harmless) is not a separate thing. It’s attached to a male body. A body that’s stronger and larger than the female one from a fairly young age.

Nobody with a stoma or an artificial limb threatens the safety, dignity, or privacy of their peers or erodes their boundaries, or teaches them that they can’t say no.

You seem to be implying that the only reason to ‘not see a willy’ is a kind of prim squeamishness that girls should just buck up and get over. It’s not. It’s about allowing each sex the privacy safety and dignity they need to enjoy sport, to go to the toilet, to change with their peers and to develop healthy strong boundaries.

To deny girls that is entirely negative.

This ^^

My words and holding on the second bit. It’s not a quote from someone else.

A stoma is nothing at all like having your safety, privacy and dignity removed to validate someone else’s identity

We don't want the wrong people to see willies in the wrong places. Nor do we want the wrong people to see prosthetic limbs or stomas . There are practical issues in common.

These are absolutely not the same issue. A penis (I shall call it a penis, not a willy, which sounds so harmless) is not a separate thing. It’s attached to a male body. A body that’s stronger and larger than the female one from a fairly young age.

Nobody with a stoma or an artificial limb threatens the safety, dignity, or privacy of their peers or erodes their boundaries, or teaches them that they can’t say no.

You seem to be implying that the only reason to ‘not see a willy’ is a kind of prim squeamishness that girls should just buck up and get over. It’s not. It’s about allowing each sex the privacy safety and dignity they need to enjoy sport, to go to the toilet, to change with their peers and to develop healthy strong boundaries.

To deny girls that is entirely negative.

That's from an article on Lily Madigan. That says to me that this teenager, known previously to peers as a teenage boy throughout their adolescence, was then permitted to use the female toilets at school.

Likely changing rooms too.

You know, ( ie you and anyone else who reads this) you'd be forgiven for thinking from the snotty replies to my posts that I wasn't actually on the side of girl pupils, and keen that they be protected.

KayM2- please don't refer to people's posts as 'snotty replies' especially on a subject such as this.
It is great that are keen that girls are protected but surely you can then see that the Allsorts guidance is promoting the exact opposite. No amount of practical advice will enable a school to both follow the guidance in the way it is set out and in the way it (wrongly) implies is necessary to be in line with the Equality Act and at the same time protect the needs of all girls, especially those who do not have a clear understanding of their own boundaries or who are unable to speak out to enforce them.

It is about reality, now, in UK schools.

Yes, which you are misleading people about.

At least we have moved away on this thread from the assumption that male-bodied students would be showering with the girls, and that that was what the guidance said.

No, we haven't. Because it is what the guidance says (as I've already posted the relevant sections) and it is being implemented in schools.

For pity's sake stop lying.

.

You are not the only poster with experience in schools, special schools, safeguarding and working with young people.

Indeed not...

current relevent thread concerning guidance for Social Workers which will affect Looked After Children & families with social care involvement:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3448221-Recommendation-that-Butterfly-used-as-training-material-for-social-workers

'After her school in Maidstone denied her access to female toilets, and continued to use her old name, she managed to hire a solicitor in 2016 after scouring London to find one. The school later backed down and apologised.'

That's from an article on Lily Madigan. That says to me that this teenager, known previously to peers as a teenage boy throughout their adolescence, was then permitted to use the female toilets at school.

Kay, is that what you are saying should or shouldn't be happening?

They are not the same, because it is almost unheard of for other children to be put at risk due to adjustments made for special educational needs

Well, some teachers do force well-behaved girls to sit next to badly behaved boys in the hopes of calming the boys down.

... though I hope that's not official policy for children with special educational needs, but just a shitty thing some teachers do because no one taught them how to deal with misbehaving boys properly.

And as for your comment about not wanting to see prosthetic limbs, I shall treat that with the contempt it deserves. If you really are involved in SEN in your professional life, then it’s fairly clear why so many schools and authorities are failing girls.

I am guessing it may be some years since Kay was involved with SEN professionally.

Stop trying to equate adjustments made for trans kids to those made for special educational needs. They are not the same.

They are not the same, because it is almost unheard of for other children to be put at risk due to adjustments made for special educational needs. Girls are being repeatedly put at risk and having their boundaries eroded because of policies that support self identification of their fellow students. It is, at best, disingenuous to try and frame the language in terms of “inclusion” of trans students in mainstream schools. They (the trans students) are already in school. They don’t need to be included, they are already there. The trans polices are exclusionary, because they reduce the rights of others in that school.

I have not come across any other special educational need that reduces the rights of other members of the school community.

This ^^

Stop trying to equate adjustments made for trans kids to those made for special educational needs. They are not the same.

They are not the same, because it is almost unheard of for other children to be put at risk due to adjustments made for special educational needs. Girls are being repeatedly put at risk and having their boundaries eroded because of policies that support self identification of their fellow students. It is, at best, disingenuous to try and frame the language in terms of “inclusion” of trans students in mainstream schools. They (the trans students) are already in school. They don’t need to be included, they are already there. The trans polices are exclusionary, because they reduce the rights of others in that school.

I have not come across any other special educational need that reduces the rights of other members of the school community.

And as for your comment about not wanting to see prosthetic limbs, I shall treat that with the contempt it deserves. If you really are involved in SEN in your professional life, then it’s fairly clear why so many schools and authorities are failing girls.

At least we have moved away on this thread from the assumption that male-bodied students would be showering with the girls, and that that was what the guidance said.

the guidance states that some male pupils (aka boys) should have access to changing areas designated for female pupils (aka girls). Based on the male pupils 'gender identity'
These have showers.

Girls and women (human females) should have the right to single sex intimate spaces in order to protect their safety, privacy and dignity.

This is both a safeguarding and child protection concern.

So too should it be when adult males seek to affirm their gender identity by influencing policies in schools, prisons, changing rooms, hospital wards which make these spaces mixed sex.

And, Rowan trees, you have several times written about the " it is not about me". Too true it is not about me. It is not about your opinions either,. It is about reality, now, in UK schools. Not theory.

The majority of my posts are sharing relevent sourced articles.
I do share my opinion occasionally and listen and consider others.

You are not the only poster with experience in schools, special schools, safeguarding and working with young people.

That I have repeatedly commented, its not all about you Kay is in direct response to some of your posts. Some of which can have had the effect (perhaps unintended) of distracting from discussions concerning groups of people who are particularly vulnerable.

Reflective practice is, as you will no doubt be aware, an important constant when working with vulnerable children and adults

Well; lets see. I have tried being ploddingly, patiently serious. No luck. Came over as didactic, no doubt. So I have tried to make the really serious points by using black-humour short hand. No luck, seen as insulting to disabled people or inappropriate. Er, I'll not take lessons on that ; my career was based on working with people with disabilities, and problems. It was me and people like me who trained support staff in stoma care, and in ways to foster dignity and independence.

And, Rowan trees, you have several times written about the " it is not about me". Too true it is not about me. It is not about your opinions either,. It is about reality, now, in UK schools. Not theory. Not a refusal to countenance such things on a website. Fact. Tomorrow, in a school not far from you. Girls who may well fear male bodied people, all girls who have the right to change in single sex facilities. And a few, a very few, possibly very scared trans kids.

This thread was about integration of trans kids into mainstream schools specifically in regards to games lessons. An area that I happen to have 30 years of RELEVANT practical transferrable knowledge and skills. So I made some points about how things can be organised.

If people would prefer to just stick to hands-up-in-horror about the concepts that this thread was about, based on theoretical ideas, and a routine condemnation of society's attitude to women and girls, fine. But I am trying to be practical. This situation exists. In 10 years it may have almost gone away. Lets hope so,. But it exists NOW, and schools have to deal with it

At least we have moved away on this thread from the assumption that male-bodied students would be showering with the girls, and that that was what the guidance said.

Sometimes I think there are no depths yet to be plumbed. Then they're plumbed.