Paris Lees Interview in the Sunday Times

yes and facial feminisation surgery in 2012, according to various websites. It takes time, work and cash for someone biologically male to look feminine.

I think Lees had voice surgery and a shaved down adams apple.

it's interesting (genuinely interesting, not in a passive aggressive way) that you'd not feel uncomfortable being in a changing room/toilet with a transwoman who 'passes' and I assume this means you might be uncomfortable with a trans woman who doesn't look so feminine?

I don't think it's strange in any way at all. Of course I feel much more comfortable if a person looks like a woman. I can't see people's chromosomes, so I go by sight. If a trans woman passes, that means people think she is a biological woman and therefore discomfort would probably never enter their minds because they would have no idea that said person was trans.

As for voice, Paris has an extremely feminine voice, no adams apple and looks no different to biological women who have larger bone structure etc. On the other hand, someone like Jane Fae is very obviously male.

It sounds superficial to go on looks etc and I am not comfortable about it, but at the end of the day, that's what people do. We know people are men or women by sight. Very rarely, it's possible to modify the body to such an extent that it's largely indistinguishable from the opposite sex, and then we naturally think it is the opposite sex.

it's interesting (genuinely interesting, not in a passive aggressive way) that you'd not feel uncomfortable being in a changing room/toilet with a transwoman who 'passes' and I assume this means you might be uncomfortable with a trans woman who doesn't look so feminine?

Really? I don't often find this with trans women, but Paris Lees is probably one of the only ones that genuinely passes. If I didn't know her background, I would have no idea that she was not biologically female. I would also not feel uncomfortable sharing changing rooms/toilets with her because she does look so female. I find her views on street harassment abhorrent, but it sounds like she has had a very very tough life

height, voice, size of hands, bone structure, huge amounts of makeup and very "done" hair, reliance on typically glamorous 'female' attire like mini skirts, very high heels, low cut tops, fishnet tights etc.. less obvious when facial feminisation surgery has occurred, admittedly.

Paris is very keen on 'passing' for a woman, but the first time I saw her in a telly documentary, I knew instantly that she was biologically male.

Really? I don't often find this with trans women, but Paris Lees is probably one of the only ones that genuinely passes. If I didn't know her background, I would have no idea that she was not biologically female. I would also not feel uncomfortable sharing changing rooms/toilets with her because she does look so female. I find her views on street harassment abhorrent, but it sounds like she has had a very very tough life.

" To effeminate men and boys it may be more 'oi arsebender' 'you could turn me' 'does your boyfriend like it when you suck him'."

I have never witnessed boys being treated like this in public and DH says he's never experienced / heard of it.

I'm sure that boys do get approached somtimes, but,

Men who prefer young boys and want to do something about it take different routes. Male children from puberty up (which is later anyway) are not seen as public sexual property in the same way. They are not looked at when their trousers get too small as "asking for it". Their PE kits and school uniforms are not sexualised. etc etc

It's just different.

I am sure that there is homophobic abuse, that's a slightly different kettle of fish though.

Women and girls are treated this way as they are lesser.
Men who other men identify as effeminite, abuse them because masculinity says that identifying with the "lesser" (female) is an abberation. Some laws show this up in countries where homosexuality amongst men is penalised, with harsher penalties for a man who receives anal sex (taking the "female role" in sex) than the one who penetrates (any holes a goal way more understandable...) I think it was Iran I was looking at their laws around this recently.

I get the impression that some men who harass women in the street genuinely don't see any harm in it. It's a 'bit of fun' or a 'compliment'. Any woman who doesn't like it is 'stuck up'. 'A lot of women appreciate it, it's why they wear short skirts and make-up.' I remember once being wolf-whistled at by a lad, who rode up fast behind me on his bike and made me jump out of my skin. I gave him the bird. He looked shocked. I went home and told my male housemate. He was outraged with me. Why couldn't I take a compliment?

A friend said a pedo stopped him on his bike and offered him £50 to show him his willy. A long time ago. That was a specific targeting by a pedo. I hear a lot of boys get targeted at arcades and places where they like to play like that.

It's not the same as having 'ordinary' dudes shouting, winking, gesturing, blowing kisses, etc constantly while you are just walking about on the streets. For girls it is ridiculous the frequency of it. I remember as a teen it seemed like every third car would beep.

I wonder if in fact Paris as a male child did get street harassment. I think often the message of all street harassment is less 'I want to fuck you' and more 'I can do this and there's nothing you can do about it' but done to males and females it is slightly different? As a female I haven't experienced the male version directly so if there are males reading this, please feel free to correct me. To effeminate men and boys it may be more 'oi arsebender' 'you could turn me' 'does your boyfriend like it when you suck him'. I'd certainly experience it as terrifying as a boy, and if I were used to an abusive homophobic father to whom I was never male enough, I'd find it brought back all that in public, without a safe space to be at at home. Then escaping from home, and escaping from your male body which has never been male enough or good enough, and suddenly being perceived as a woman and experiencing street harassment as women get it, might be genuinely more positive - you would see women as getting this attention just for being female, without having to live up to the physical standards demonstrated by sport/fighting/toughness/tearlessness/emotionlessness that men are supposed to reach.

An awful lot of prominent TRAs seem to have this pattern of a homophobic abusive father and a mother who in some form did not protect them (was not a good enough woman?)

Paris is very keen on 'passing' for a woman, but the first time I saw her in a telly documentary, I knew instantly that she was biologically male.
The same as when I walked past a trans woman in M&S a few weeks back. We caught each others eye for a nanosecond, as we passed the till. She looked lovely and was beautifully dressed, but in that nanosecond, it registered that she was biologically male. Our brain registers it, whatever pronoun we use out of politeness (and I do)

I think Paris would agree that was not very nice.

They would put it in a different "box" to street hararssment.

Women and girls tend to be well aware it all comes from the same place >> that the wolf whistle or the shouted "gissa blow job" comes from the same place, it's aggression, sexual aggression and entitlement. The statement is "I want to fuck you and I do not care what you think about that as you are nothing more than an object" >> whether he actually tries to touch or not.

Women and girls (do I need to put a NAWALT for the few that say they love it?) understans this at an innate level as we have grown up with it. We understand that they often target more vulnerable >> which is why girls about 12-20 get such a lot of shit, far less likely to do anything, far more likey to react in a pleasing way (and of course any reaction is good for them > crying, blushing, shouting, running etc).

Paris loves it because Paris was never a 13yo girl getting aggressively propositioned by older, bigger, stronger, random men while walking home from school.

Although as Paris was working as a prostitute at 14, you'd think maybe they'd have some insight into what bastards men can be? They seem to come down hard on the side of the men, male entitlement though. So. Whatever.

When I was 13 and in school uniform a man dragged me into a gateway and tried to rape me. I suppose I should've been flattered by Paris' reasoning.

Wow, I think Paris comes off terribly. Incredibly shallow ("I didn't know how good I was going to look") and rebutting obviously serious concerns and factual statistics with contentless, empty assurances. I like that the article raises those serious concerns too, it doesn't pretend they don't exist.

Plus the undercutting of the victim narrative with the Downing Street visit. And "I'm a professional trans person" is pretty damning. I think an uninformed person reading that article is not going to come away with a good impression of Paris or of the trans lobby.

When men imagine street harrassment they always imagine a very attractive woman coyly saying ooh you're very handsome

They never imagine being 13 and in school uniform and having a man 3 times their size ask them for oral sex.

true

Street harrassment is not a compliment and anyone who thinks so is incredibly dim.

Or male. It's quite a common belief of MRAs of all stripes.

I have also given her "permission" to be "rude" (ie not feel she has to engage in conversation and can just leave) and also methods to get away / put a persistant man or men off.

In age appropriate terms and also saying it's not likely to happen but if it does...

Do parents of boys even have to think about this stuff?

I bet Paris thinks it would have been awesome to be sexually harrassed by adult men when a child, if they had been allowed the blockers and surgery at the age they wanted them.

That interview made my skin crawl, so Paris was a child prostitute which in the space of one short interview is characterised as:

1. problematic (I went off the rails), though it’s the transphobes fault for not medicalising me aged 11.

1. A great source of income for the otherwise prohibitively expensive cosmetic surgery she obtained.

I can see why Vogue hired her, whore yourselves out for the pricey stuff kids, there is no other route to happiness.

I was feminine in apperance (if not in personality :D) and also was comfortable with how I looked and also hated hated hated all street harrassment.

One of the reasons I have had feminist ideas from a young age.

Street harrassment is not a compliment and anyone who thinks so is incredibly dim.

I have told my DD (11) that if (when) she gets men saying "rude things" to her or shouting at her, they do it to anyone, she shouldn't feel that they have picked on her for some reason.

Sorry - italic fail with your quote, Bad!

As for all the other crap Paris comes out with, well I just use the above as a baseline and judge everything else based on that

Yes. Like when Paris recently said in response to people saying that women were afraid of male violence that "some people are afraid of escalators" because Paris can't imagine how a fear of male violence to a woman could be rational.

Bad hair day, right, I’ll remember that for next time I’m late.

Not so very long ago, I was actually told to my face, by a person who knows me, in person, that it was surprising I’d had street harassment and sexual comments and assaults off men, because, you know, I’m not very feminine. Soz Paris, you’re nowt special. Even an ugly old butch dyke like me gets sexual harassment. You like the way you look so you take it as a compliment, and I quite like the way I look, and it’s not a compliment. I couldn’t imagine putting ‘a bit more effort’ in to get more sexual harassment, if you know what I mean. Maybe there in lies the difference. You want it, and you’ve had to have a lot done to get it, where as us women, we get it by default, but we really don’t want it. I don’t know a single woman, and I have known a lot, who goes out of her way to invite street harassment. You like sexist, sexual abuse, that’s not being a woman, that’s just being a pervy fuck.

As for all the other crap Paris comes out with, well I just use the above as a baseline and judge everything else based on that.

I agree with LikeDust.