Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

What has started as a thread that looked at how transsexual people were not represented by the modern transgender has
once again merged into the "women v trans" argument which benefits no one.

the original message stands.... transsexual women stand against the violence and abuse that are carried on in the name of "transgender rights" and distance themselves from that.

reiterating the same argument only ends in anger.

society as a whole needs to address these issues openly and honestly without fear of repercussion.

it really isn't as black and white as you put it. Granted the "transgender" umbrella is a joke but we come back to the fact that there is a small number of transitioning transsexual people with GD who deserve some understanding

Yes it is.

Human beings can't change sex.

Women (adult human females) need protections from men (adult human males).

Understanding ≠ surrender of language, rights and spaces. This is an appeal to female socialisation and entirely unwelcome in a feminist space.

I find it instructive that you are happy to take the accolades for signing the letter and use language that you must be aware will be offensive to a good number of women here, then bridle at the slightest challenge.

Like I say, thank you for signing the letter. Any condemnation of male violence and abuse is to be welcomed. It does not manipulate me into changing my opinion on the need for single sex spaces nor the appropriation of language women use to describe themselves.

Just out of interest why wouldn’t you want to share a space with transmen cant ? Is it purely a validation thing?

By debate, you are asking me to negotiate my daughter and my rights away.

Women and girls need and want sex segregated spaces.

"not my problem"

If both sides are to engage in meaningful debate then that doesn't work as a response from either side. every time someone makes a valid point it always gets shut down with "not my problem".

it really isn't as black and white as you put it. Granted the "transgender" umbrella is a joke but we come back to the fact that there is a small number of transitioning transsexual people with GD who deserve some understanding.

A women is an adult human female. Not an adult human male. A women isn't a male person who has had surgery or hormones or who wears a certain types of clothes.

Any male person who seeks to change the definition away from female, and expects women to give up their spaces, is part of the problem.

It's not my problem to sort out, I'm afraid.

Women are adult human females. If you feel you need to name yourself differently from the sex into which you were born, have at it. But I will object if it appropriates my sex. If you need a space away from males, do the work to envisage it and campaign for it. Women need single sex spaces. End of.

How would a third space work ? does that mean male and female transsexual people should share a space?

whilst I absolutely accept male appropriation in much of the transgender argument I personally have no issue over "transsexual women". the modern transgender agenda seeks to have transgender women called women and that is blatant appropriation.

without the term transsexual woman how else would you identify someone who is in transition ? The classic argument is "women Don t have penises" so does that mean a post up ts can call themselves a woman ? clearly we have a situation where a TS person is no longer male but not accepted as female.

cantgetridofthekids - thanks for signing the letter. It's a great one. But I'm going to tell you now that I find the term transsexual woman deeply, deeply appropriative and offensive. Yes, there are areas in which collaboration is both helpful and welcome. But I'm afraid it does not change my mind on the basics: human beings cannot change sex; women have the right to name themselves without male appropriation via self-ID or surgery; the only practical safeguarding/risk assessment comes via single sex spaces; if transsexual persons require a space away from males, it must be a third space.

I love that ‘‘‘twaw except for relationship purposes’ guy.

So basically up to the point it affects you personally.

He can’t even see what’s wrong with what he’s saying, the fact he’s standing by it is hilarious.

But honestly, the OTT gushing of thanks on that twitter thread is like a masterclass in female subservience.

I know what you’re saying but these people are putting their heads above the parapet and getting a lot of shit, I think it’s important to acknowledge that. Personally I am grateful everyone who is using their own name and damaging their own reputation.

A trans woman on another thread made the point that some trans women don’t speak out because they get loads of shit from their community and their ‘prize’ is to be told there’s no space for them in women’s spaces.
I think think it’s really brave when they speak out and the least I can do is say thank you.

Are our public officials and political representatives asleep at the wheel?

No, they are two years behind us (and need to catch up with their understanding and thinking PDQ)

I can guarantee though were a woman to be asked if she would accept a cross dresser into a woman's space the answer would unequivocally be no.

It’s hard to think of any other sexual fetish or paraphilia where the government is actively considering enacting changes to the law that would enshrine and protect an individual’s right to practice their fetish in public with unconsenting women and children (eg changing rooms) - with the additional possibility that objecting (witholding/withdrawing consent) becomes unlawful (hate speech). You really couldn’t make it up. Are our public officials and political representatives asleep at the wheel?

Thanks to DebbieInBirmingham, cantgetridofthekids and all of you who signed for doing that

Definitely appreciate it and no, it's not "subservience" to say so. There are lots of people being harmed by this strain of gender ideology, including those genuinely suffering from gender dysphoria and we don't all have to agree on everything or have identical worldviews to be supportive of one another. A lot of transsexuals I know feel the same way you do.

I know it's not the first time (Guardian letter, which again caused much consternation) but it's crucial that the public keeps hearing that transsexuals - who are who MOST people in the public think of when they think of "trans" - are not all on board with the absurd, misogynistic and homophobic views and actions of the TRAs and that there are wide-ranging issues here.

It's essential also that the false narratives being put out there get broken and people see what's going on - a powerful way of making sure that happens is getting voices from different groups and people who would be assumed to be "onside" but in reality are not.

The most frustrating thing of all this is that every single valid debate gets shut down amid allegations of transphobia.

Facts are not transphobia. Discussion is not transphobia.

Denying discussion however results in bullying.

It is disgusting to think that laws intended to protect individuals from hate crime and abuse are being flipped around and misused.

Great letter.

*They're fucking us all over aren't they?

Why do you think the trans agenda is gaining such traction? I simply don't believe that everyone who is supportive/accommodating of it is just trying to be nice.*

The problem I think first of all is with the whole notion of a trans umbrella. This transgender umbrella represents apparently over 100 "gender identities" and psychological and medical issues as well as lifestyle choices and sexual fetishes.

My personal view is simply that transsexual rights were hijacked in some cases by those who would otherwise not have been entitled.
Historically many women have been accepting of sharing spaces with transsexual women....those who are medically diagnosed and hormonally/surgically transitioned. I can guarantee though were a woman to be asked if she would accept a cross dresser into a woman's space the answer would unequivocally be no. So how does the cross dresser get what they want ? They jump on the bandwagon of rights for transsexual people.

I do accept too that there are those who push transgender rights due to sexism / misogyny. No doubt in my mind that this modern agenda does erase women (and indeed erases transsexual women). Quite what motivates those who would do so I don't know.

As long as such a broad umbrella exists there can be no solution. To my mind we need to get back to a division of the umbrella into its component parts and consider each component on it's own. Otherwise you get into the situation as we have been where sympathy for a transitioned transsexual given an inch results in another part of the umbrella trying to take a mile.

The GRC was always intended for transsexual people who were in transition. Under 4000 people have been granted one because it requires significant evidence. Good!!!
Those who come along and argue "but I want a GRC too but I havent got Gender Dysphoria" should be told "tough". Can you think of any other avenue of life where this would be allowed to happen ?

Thank you to all the signatories. Fab letter

Sense is starting to prevail!
Great letter in the Times and great posts from @cantgetridofthekids and @DebbieInBirmingham.

cantgetridofthekids

cantgetridofthekids

They're fucking us all over aren't they?

Why do you think the trans agenda is gaining such traction? I simply don't believe that everyone who is supportive/accommodating of it is just trying to be nice.

(Will understand if you don't want to say!)

To further add to my previous I think Debbie is a wonderful voice for the transsexual community at a time where so many transsexual people are scared for their own safety.

Which is unsurprising:(
A good letter.

I am a member of the group responsible for this letter. (This post is not a group post but a personal one)

Transsexual people are very much against the modern transgender agenda and indeed are having their identity erased as transsexual people by the whole self identity / alternate lifestyle / sexual fetishism arguments.

There have always been a relatively small number of transsexual people who are medically and psychologically assessed with Gender Dysphoria, who have had surgical and/or hormonal intervention and who want nothing more than peaceful coexistence alongside women. The statement in the press very much represents what transsexual women believe. Many more people I know would love to have signed it but felt unable to do so over fear for their safety.