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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

682 replies

PimmsnLemonade · 08/12/2018 00:23

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/times-letters-reasons-for-private-schools-oxbridge-success-sqjb6kkgt

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Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 14:49

I think a lot of people are surprised that some trans people are not happy with the option as a third as a compromise. If you read the ‘mumsnet a hotbed of transphobia’ thread you’ll see that some of the posters who join to tell us how transphobic we are actually bring this up as the obvious solution.

On the face of it it’s perfect. Trans women say they can’t use the male toilets because of fear of being beaten up or harassed, women don’t want males in their space for the same reasons so we provide a third space.
Unfortunately the crux of the matter is it’s not just about safety, it’s about validation.

And I get that! Gender dysphoria must be awful, I have the deepest sympathy for people who suffer with it. But for too long have females comfort, safety, dignity and body autonomy been placed second to the whims of males bodied people. You don’t get to use us.

LangCleg · 09/12/2018 14:30

Because I'm sitting here very much noticing that a tiny little pushback doesn't result in any self reflection (honourable exception Miranda, as always) - only an immediate kneejerk assertion that some males are coming in, whether we consent or not.

LangCleg · 09/12/2018 14:28

You signed the letter, right, Kay? What was your motivation? To unequivocally condemn male violence or to use a (hopefully) positive reaction to it as a wedge to persuade women to concede that some male born people (ie, you) should continue to use their spaces whether they like it or not? And appropriate their language, whether they like it or not?

(And yes, we do know.)

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 14:26

Please lets remember that since there have been public loos, changing rooms, loos in dept stores, some people have used the ones that do not correspond with their birth sex. Often for most of their lives.

But it’s not just about toilets and changing rooms, it’s about sport and prisons, refuges and hospitals.

We know we’ve shared our toilets with transsexuals, we’ve seen them.

Would you be against a third space kay?

KayM2 · 09/12/2018 14:19

Please lets remember that since there have been public loos, changing rooms, loos in dept stores, some people have used the ones that do not correspond with their birth sex. Often for most of their lives.

Although we often read that" we can always spot them", it ain't so. Usually, but not always. Males ( and we are talking about males, really) vary hugely in build., and in natural levels of testosterone. Some have little or none of the strong jawbone and prominent ridges above the eyes, and so on, and some are if slight height and build.

When someone who is not of strongly male build has been living " as a woman" for 30 years, and has worked at it , they may well pass under the radar.

So the situation at the moment is as it is. Transsexual women, and indeed trans people, are " in the spaces. " Not often, and very rarely with bad outcomes. The problem remains; what the hell happens if thousands of trans women suddenly invade?

I don't know.But just saying " we are not having it" may not solve the problem. The least worst solution might be to stick with the current system.

According to my mother my daughter, and my sisters, I do not get glanced at in the mirrors in the loos. I've never had " ere' there's a geezer in here" comment when I have been in a cubicle. But tbh I don't pass wonderfully well, if people have a hard look at me. I think people are just getting on with life, and as long as there is no evil intention, tend not to take much notice.

Though when I transitioned, at UCA, I did not use the ladies loos for the first year, because I can't tell who has good reason to be alarmed at males in the ladies. Would I go back to using the gents, after two decades? Sorry, but no.

donquixotedelamancha · 09/12/2018 14:17

Anyone got a clue what all the deletions are for? (Mine included)

I thought this thread was going well by the robust standards of this debate.

Neurotrash · 09/12/2018 14:12

Thanks Miranda. I missed that particular important thread and blog post (due to baby birthing and sustaining)

arranbubonicplague · 09/12/2018 14:02

It’s actually awful to know your boundaries might hurt someone’s feelings but that’s not a good enough reason to get rid of your boundaries.

Jane Clare Jones' (aka LadyPrincesexual ) has produced
Ontological Totalitarianism by Numbers broken down into 30 bullet points and this might be relevant to you.

21. People refusing to validate your identity may be painful.
22. Something being painful is not conceptually identical to it being a moral harm, structural violence, or an act of oppression.
23. Not getting our needs met is sometimes painful.
24. Sometimes our needs don’t get met because other people also have needs, beliefs, and interests.
25. Thinking you must always have you needs met and refusing to understand why other people may not meet your needs, is narcissistic entitlement.

As ever, I recommend the whole piece.

janeclarejones.com/2018/12/08/ontological-totalitarianism-by-numbers/

mirandayardley · 09/12/2018 14:01

do you have a sense of how conversations might proceed among those like you

I’ve written about this loads of times.

My suggestions to lay the ground are here:

Transsexual Voices Matter

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 13:57

^This show that non of the trans community are listening to women and understanding our needs. Calling out threats and violence is great, and using their own names is brave.

But showing bravery doesn't mean they have the right to take away sex segregated spaces. Women and girls still need these spaces.^

Yeah definitely, and I don’t think the trans woman was saying that. She was just pointing out why some are reluctant to speak up rather than saying it was right or there’s anything we can do about it.

I find it so contrary to my core because I immediately just want to swaddle them up and say ‘it’s ok we”ll look after you’ but I know that it’s not the best thing to do for anyone. It’s actually awful to know your boundaries might hurt someone’s feelings but that’s not a good enough reason to get rid of your boundaries.

mirandayardley · 09/12/2018 13:56

I am a member of the group responsible for this letter. (This post is not a group post but a personal one).

Hence my (reasonable) presumption.

arranbubonicplague · 09/12/2018 13:54

We cannot assess individuals on a case-by-case basis which is why we have legal categories and protections to cover protected classes.

MirandaYardley - do you have a sense of how conversations might proceed among those like you and the signatories and those who adopt a different ideological stance (crudely, self-ID aligned TRAs)? Are they happening or is it more a case of nobody appointed the more prominent TRAs and there are no representatives amongst whom discussions might take place? (I hope that makes sense.)

mirandayardley · 09/12/2018 13:54

Exceot I'm not a signatory! I have never even said I was transsexual !

I haven't argued anything in this thread because I agree with the vast majority of it. All I have said is I think both sides need to be open to debate.

My mistake. Apologies. I’m glad you find agreement with points in the letter however the target was not Mumsnet rather the transgender lobbyists who remain silent while violence against women is being acted in their name. My point about NAMALT remains.

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 13:51

*I am a member of the group responsible for this letter. (This post is not a group post but a personal one)

Transsexual people are very much against the modern transgender agenda and indeed are having their identity erased as transsexual people by the whole self identity / alternate lifestyle / sexual fetishism arguments.*

Oh I thought this was saying you were a signatory, sorry I must have misunderstood.

Neurotrash · 09/12/2018 13:50

I am a member of the group responsible for this letter. (This post is not a group post but a personal one)

Ah, this read that you are a signatory of the letter.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 09/12/2018 13:49

A trans woman on another thread made the point that some trans women don’t speak out because they get loads of shit from their community and their ‘prize’ is to be told there’s no space for them in women’s spaces.

This show that non of the trans community are listening to women and understanding our needs. Calling out threats and violence is great, and using their own names is brave.

But showing bravery doesn't mean they have the right to take away sex segregated spaces. Women and girls still need these spaces.

Neurotrash · 09/12/2018 13:48

Thank you to the authors, polishers and signatories of this letter.

Thank you Lang, Thank you Can't and Thank you Miranda.

I appreciate discussion and debate around this so very much.

cantgetridofthekids · 09/12/2018 13:47

that letter was not written so that signatories could take it upon themselves to come on here and use it to argue NAMALT.

Exceot I'm not a signatory! I have never even said I was transsexual !

I haven't argued anything in this thread because I agree with the vast majority of it. All I have said is I think both sides need to be open to debate.

cantgetridofthekids · 09/12/2018 13:43

Unfortunately The transgender ideology isn’t going away, the cat is out of the bag now. It is impossible for us to tell who is transgender and who is a ‘genuine transsexual’. There is no way to allow transsexuals in but transgenders out.

I am 100% in agreement. Transsexual people have been thrown under the bus by the transgender brigade and there is no easy way to untangle it.

what I'm sure we can agree on though to ensure things don't get worse....
reject self ID
reject demedicalisation
have support in place for gender counselling to ensure transition is only ever a last resort

mirandayardley · 09/12/2018 13:42

This is such a sweeping generalisation. You cannot label all male born people in that way.

That letter was not written so that signatories could take it upon themselves to come on here and use it to argue NAMALT. This fundamentally undermines what common cause we have.

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 13:37

‘society as a whole needs to address these issues openly and honestly without fear of repercussion.’

We are trying.

Unfortunately The transgender ideology isn’t going away, the cat is out of the bag now. It is impossible for us to tell who is transgender and who is a ‘genuine transsexual’. There is no way to allow transsexuals in but transgenders out.
A third space is the only workable option.

cantgetridofthekids · 09/12/2018 13:35

I am not going to be goaded into an argument so I can be a target for everything wrong with the transgender agenda.

LangCleg · 09/12/2018 13:34

This is such a sweeping generalisation. You cannot label all male born people in that way.

You have no idea whatsoever what you're demonstrating here, have you?

LangCleg · 09/12/2018 13:32

once again merged into the "women v trans" argument which benefits no one

You mean it doesn't benefit you. Which is rather the point. Thanks for letting us know.

cantgetridofthekids · 09/12/2018 13:31

Women (adult human females) need protections from men

This is such a sweeping generalisation. You cannot label all male born people in that way.

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