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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

682 replies

PimmsnLemonade · 08/12/2018 00:23

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/times-letters-reasons-for-private-schools-oxbridge-success-sqjb6kkgt

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Calvinsmam · 10/12/2018 00:05

Being on the internet is a well known form of procrastination, though. I have plenty I should be doing, inc about 2 dozen cards, but the laptop is a draw.....

Story....of....my....life.

I’m my own boss too. I think I’d probably be a millionaire by now if I didn’t keep getting sucked into Mumsnet.

PencilsInSpace · 09/12/2018 23:58

Mamaryllis - Pencils, were you on SW’s thread on here? SW has literally no intention to do anything other than quietly and determinedly push through self-ID using political and back door connections. SW’s aim is to completely destroy women’s rights and any safeguards based on sex.

Yes I was and yes I know. What their intention is vs. what they tell the media, vs. what they tell their friends in high places, vs what they try to fob us off with, are all very different things.

I don't expect them to agree with me on anything, I just expect them to not quietly condone violence against women. These are the basic rules of civilised debate.

A few weeks ago a 'male feminist' kicked a pro-life campaigning woman in the face, in the street, in broad daylight. Nobody I know had a problem speaking out against that violence, no matter what we thought of that woman's politics.

KayM2 · 09/12/2018 23:13

Not quite a hobby perhaps. :-)

Being on the internet is a well known form of procrastination, though. I have plenty I should be doing, inc about 2 dozen cards, but the laptop is a draw.....

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 23:06

In fact, members of my family are rather pleased that I try to get involved with these things, insofar as I do.

That’s made me smile. I can’t help but imagine it in a ‘everybody needs a hobby way’ though I’m sure it’s not.

KayM2 · 09/12/2018 22:51

re the "aggro" that people who signed the Guardian or Times letters or support WPUK get;

Actually, for most , there isn't any. Yet, anyway . :-)

We know that some of the more visible people DO get real trouble, but most TS people are not really in contact with the idiotic / trans/ activist clan at all. Many of us are a bit older, or a lot older. We just don't meet these people, or them us. For me, and some others , it is not a thing that needs courage.

Those people who are living their lives " in stealth" ( ie with no-one around them knowing their past) ARE taking a real risk. And a risk that is hard to assess, which makes it a bit of a worry.

Those who are "out" have very little to lose. In fact, members of my family are rather pleased that I try to get involved with these things, insofar as I do.

Mamaryllis · 09/12/2018 22:37

It was a masterpiece of performing gender though.
Oh I can’t be relied upon to remember birthdays! That’s what I have a wife for!

Mamaryllis · 09/12/2018 22:35

Pencils, were you on SW’s thread on here? SW has literally no intention to do anything other than quietly and determinedly push through self-ID using political and back door connections.
SW’s aim is to completely destroy women’s rights and any safeguards based on sex.

BirdseyeFrozen · 09/12/2018 22:13

Sorry, cross posted missed yours!
Yes to all that you say Pencils

What we are seeing then, is the hijacking of Transsexual people and their individual struggles, by the so called TRA.

TS people, are some few thousands in number, who have been to hell and back. They just want to get on with their lives, like most of us. We see here, that most don't really have huge support networks. There is no huge Transsexual collective voice just as there is no huge Intersex collective voice, as we are talking minority groups, with little influence socially, politically and economically.

I am so angry about what is happening to this small part of our society in addition to what is happening to women and children.
The "Woke" are either sleeping fools or those who look the other way for their own purposes.
Call it out, and it is "transphobic". The word has no genuine meaning these days, except as a tool to close down debate.

And yes, violence, hate and spite should always be called out by everyone.

Neurotrash · 09/12/2018 21:34

This. I too find women-only groups and spaces deeply satisfying and helpful. The atmosphere and interaction is quite different from mixed-sex situations.

Yes. Until recently this was a thought I felt compelled to suppress but it's true, it's deeply meaningful to know that I can access a female only space if needed, physically or emotionally.

I'm lucky I can at my local pool; a colleague now rarely swims following a voyerism incident (that resulted in prosecution) at her local pool with mixed changing facilities.

BirdseyeFrozen · 09/12/2018 21:33

Pencils I never thought that I would find a talk on toilets so informative and also entertaining. Clare Greed knows her stuff!

PencilsInSpace · 09/12/2018 21:30

Yeah I know, Birdseye. PFC always used to make such a big deal out of effecting change through making friends though. That's a big part of the reason why we're in this mess - because they campaigned for things quietly, under the radar, through having chats with the friends they made in politics and the media.

Is this the payoff? Must we now be subject to violence, threats and intimidation because their backroom dealings no longer work (because we're watching now and women can see)?

Surely it's incumbent on anybody involved in this debate to say violence, threats and intimidation towards women are wrong, no matter what your views. It's not OK to piss up professors' doors or cause them to hide behind trees to avoid the TRAs who are stalking them. It's not OK to no platform women or come up with disgusting definitions of their names. It's not OK to physically attack women in broad daylight just because they are attempting to attend a meeting to discuss their own rights.

This is being a decent human being 101.

PencilsInSpace · 09/12/2018 21:11

Has everybody seen ? It's very good.

BirdseyeFrozen · 09/12/2018 20:57

Christine Burns mentors "young activists".
Stephen Whittle educates them.
They both derive income and substantial status from " The Trans Movement" these days.

They are very different people in much of their present thinking to the signatories of the Times letter, and the very articulate TS women posting here about their own views and experiences, in my view.

welshgendercrit · 09/12/2018 20:54

there is something so liberating about being in a female only space, it’s incredibly healing. These changes effectively make it illegal for women to organise without males being allowed to be present. I find that really upsetting.

This. I too find women-only groups and spaces deeply satisfying and helpful. The atmosphere and interaction is quite different from mixed-sex situations.

PencilsInSpace · 09/12/2018 20:51

It's great that this letter is signed by 'transsexual people' and not 'transsexual women' even though all the signatories' names are more traditionally associated with the female sex. It's great that the letter refers to us simply and unequivocally as women and states that we are oppressed because of our sex, and not some metaphysical gender identity.

While I wholeheartedly support this letter and am grateful to all who signed, I am wary that it may be used by some in an attempt to leverage female socialisation. Some may have misinterpreted 'We seek to find common cause with women against male violence' as 'let us in your lavs,' when that was clearly not the intention.

We had an 'honour system' (except it never was because women were never asked, it was a 'put up with it and don't make a fuss, it doesn't happen often' system). Lots of women have never been comfortable with it. Of course nobody shouted 'ooh look it's a geezer' because of female socialisation, which includes both the polite centring of male needs and the constant risk assessment we all perform in the interests of self-preservation. You won't have noticed the women who just quietly left. You won't have noticed those that stayed standing, fully dressed, in their cubicles until they were sure you had left. You have no concept of women only space because as soon as you enter, it's a mixed sex space.

Women don't need an excuse in order to object to sharing toilets with males. Whether we have a history of sexual assault, religious or cultural rules we have to follow, or neither, we are all entitled to not only safety but also privacy and dignity. Thinking that as long as we keep out the males who might hit or rape us then everything's fine shows a very low regard for women, what we are worth, what rights we deserve.

It's not women's job to sort out where everybody goes for a piss. Lots of us here are mums, but we're not your mum. You do the work to come up with solutions that meet your needs and don't crap on women and I will support your efforts, although I'm with Spartacus here, I will spend more energy on campaigning for more Changing Places because there are people who cannot physically use any toilet.

Third spaces are the obvious solution but not good enough for some apparently. If the trans lobby got behind this idea you'd have a commitment to providing third spaces tomorrow. Until a year or so ago, the trans lobby could ask for the moon on a stick and get it in short order. The political landscape has changed somewhat since then, thanks to the huge uprising in women's resistance. Right now, a suggestion for something that made life easier for trans people and didn't piss off women should be hugely popular. Everyone (aside from the 'aggy kids') is sick of this impasse. Yes it's expensive but there appears to be plenty of money sloshing about for the likes of Stonewall, Gires etc. See if you can divert it.

If there are genuine problems with the third space solution then really it's up to trans people to come up with other suggestions (cf. 'we're not your mum') I have no interest in being nagged and cajoled into giving up my boundaries in an elaborate game of 'yes, but where do I pee??'

Toilets are the least of these issues, obviously. Maybe we should be starting with the most important and urgent contexts. I seem to remember Women In Prison have tentatively suggested third spaces as a solution to dire situation in prisons.

ChewyLouie · 09/12/2018 20:38

Kay2m,thanks for your comments. I struggle to see how third unisex spaces rather like disabled loos can threaten the safety of anyone or need to be policed. I feel the current government isn’t committed to the safety of women, but it shouldn’t be an either/or situation, it needs to be safe for all. A third space is safe for all.
It would be great if the trans community could divert the funds currently being used to threaten women’s spaces and use it to help fund a safe option.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 09/12/2018 20:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Calvinsmam · 09/12/2018 20:00

If I’m being honest it’s not just about safety with me.
I also like female only spaces. I am sure there are some trans women who read completely as female but they are in the minority and I can’t say all but I know lots of women act differently around males.
I like my trans friends, most of the time they are very very welcome, but there is something so liberating about being in a female only space, it’s incredibly healing.
These changes effectively make it illegal for women to organise without males being allowed to be present. I find that really upsetting.

I can also see how that might offend my trans friends and it’s really sad.
I wish I could wage a magic want and make them the sex they want to be, I really do.

I think it’s a bit like my gay friends, I know that they love me and welcome me into their spaces but I am invited in I don’t force my way in and if they ever said ‘actually we would like some time just for gay people’ I would get that entirely, sometimes it’s just nice to be around people who just ‘get it’.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 09/12/2018 19:50

No one has any way of knowing whether women are saying nothing because they don't mind; haven't noticed; or are quietly terrified. And it's not fair that any woman should be made to feel like that in a single sex space that is specifically designed to separate males out.

And it's definitely not fair to make girls feel unsafe.

GoblinsAndGhouls · 09/12/2018 19:43

Your point about makeup adjustment made me smile. It would be a dodgy thing to do if one was worried about being spotted. I never wear any, ever.

Grin I was about 19 and it was the first time I'd ever encountered a transsexual in real life. I went to wash my hands a the sink and caught the eye of the person next to me in the mirror reapplying their lipstick.

I can remember it well; my thought process went something like, "eh? That looks like a... ohhh..." we smiled at each other and that was it! All very uneventful.

Which is why this current situation is so ridiculous!

I'm sorry about my "geezer" comment

Don't apologise. I do get it. But, at the same time, it's an argument that is used a lot to justify allowing males into women only spaces - that no women have ever objected. The reality is that some women won't mind; some won't notice; and some will feel very uncomfortable and scared.

The whole point of women only spaces is that women have a place they can go to to be free from males and, for a lot of women, that is very important. No one has any way of knowing whether women are saying nothing because they don't mind; haven't noticed; or are quietly terrified. And it's not fair that any woman should be made to feel like that in a single sex space that is specifically designed to separate males out.

PencilsInSpace · 09/12/2018 19:34

Thank you to all who have signed this letter, It's great Flowers I hope the trans lobby take note and I hope you don't get too much abuse.

For the life of me I cannot imagine why old stalwarts like Christine Burns and Stephen Whittle haven't already written a letter like this and sent a strong message to the TRAs who look up to them. Their continued silence is deafening.

Racecardriver · 09/12/2018 19:24

That is very brave. I hope that they don’t find themselves under attack as a result. Well done to them.

KayM2 · 09/12/2018 19:21

re pressure; David Davis ( Davies? the Monmouth MP ) was the only one who spoke words that give us hope, in the recent committee. I ( and I am sure many others) had sent him emails... the first contact I ever had with an Tory MP....

We just have to keep banging on. I hope that though we are few, the TS people can add just a little weight to the cause. People can't argue convincingly that we are transphobic. Though they try!

KayM2 · 09/12/2018 19:16

calvinsman; brilliant post about the people you mention. All the issues were there.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 09/12/2018 19:01

Shy bairns get nowt. Trans activists have the ears all political parties and policy makers,it wouldn't harm to ask.

If male people can enter female toilets and changing rooms legally, why do we pretend to have single sex facilities? Who benefits from the lie that they are segregated by sex?