Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

Rowantrees; I'm glad you say that I am entitled to my opinion. because everyone is. And I know what is in the letter I signed, because I read it before I signed it. So quoting from it again is surprising, perhaps? Unless it was because it was such an excellent letter? :-)

Possibly we differ a bit, a little bit; on the meaning and implications inherent in some of the wording.

I was happy to sign because it dealt very much with the shitty way that some of what we conveniently call " the TRAs" have conducted themselves in words and deeds.

(Though it is a shame that you regarded me stating my opinion as " lecturing". I'm just doing what everyone else is doing, including you; stating beliefs and opinions. )

I don't care about self id. I don't care how the government decide who is transgender.

I hate the way transsexuals and transgender people force gender stereotypes into children and encourage children to take puberty blockers and wear binders.

I hate the way male transsexuals and male transgender people refuse allow women and girls spaces and words to describe themselves. I hate the way all male people seem to think they are doing us a favour by allowing us spaces they don't need, but are very quick to take it away from us when they see fit.

I wish more women could see the blatant lies male transsexuals and male transpeople say. Many are happy to appear in the media shouting about respecting women and identifying with women. But when it really matters, when they might have to change their life even a tiny little bit, they tell us to fuck off and that they will refuse to let us have space to ourselves.

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion Kay

Bit rich lecturing others though, especially women this board.

The thread started based on a letter which you have said you signed, the key motivator apparently being the condemnation of attempts to control women (adult human females) by predominantely male trans-activists: to prevent them from discusssing important issues of women's rights, safeguarding & free speech.

"We seek to find common cause with women against male violence and we condemn the threats, harassment and intimidation of women who argue that sex-based protections are vital in a society still punctuated by sexism. Women are oppressed because of their sex, not some metaphysical gender identity. We are concerned that women are being dehumanised as “TERFs” (trans-exclusionary radical feminists) in order for abusive males to unleash misogynistic rhetoric and violent abuse with impunity.

We call for respectful discussion and debate, and for transgender rights activists to distance themselves from physical violence and attacks on free speech carried out in their name."

Control can of course take different forms and many women are aware of this although it is important to continually raise awareness.

Current thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

Hmmm; been away for a couple of days, came back, had a look.

Same old, same old really, isn't it? It does remind me of discussions one sits in with about religions. I have at least three versions of Christianity in my family, each version at loggerheads with the others at various times. I'd imagine that this is replicated in many families in the UK, with different combinations of religion, creeds, and political beliefs.

It is not just religions; any " world view" that is passionately held can produce conflict. The merits of Paget -Gorman v Makaton became a resigning matter in one school I worked in , and ditto Bobath Physio v Conductive Education.

Each of them seems to have a common strand,. the idea that if only others would see the superiority of " our " idea and reject all the others then the world would be a better place.

In the situation we find ourselves in over this really worrying " contagion" of trans matters ( and I gave away my own opinion there, sorry) the main point seems to get lost;

IE; since times unknown the place of women in (almost?) all societies has been that of the second class, in the possession of males, of lack of opportunity/ property/ political rights. Slowly slowly in SOME societies things have improved a bit. But not anything like enough.

But , the process of fighting for those rights which are not won, has involved "creed like" approaches... as happens in socialism.... neoliberalism..... and so perfectly reasonable and usually highly intelligent and well educated people end up taking stances that obscure the main aim they started with.

I should know . In my time I have been a fanatic for International Socialism., and Conductive Education. And the English Folk Song and Dance Society. That was almost the worst.

Can we not be a little kinder to each other? We cannot ever remove all the things we do not want to like or accept in our society and lives.

People like me, pretty old now, with a GRC and a birth certificate that says "F", are not going to stop using the ladies loos when we stop at Oxford Services. So when I am in there, as I was recently, and a harrassed mother of three kids under 5 asked me to stay with her oldest, who was @ 4, while she tried to deal with two younger, screaming children, one of whom had had a nappy disaster, was I supposed to say... " no, I cannot chat with this child, in generalised granny mode, as I once had a different name and birth certificate?

Because it is not going to happen is it? I am not going to go back to using the gents. We are breaking no law in the ladies, even if we have no GRC. Our GRC says we are female under the law " for all practical purposes". We are not going away. We have always been there., we will always been here. So, why not move forward in pragmatic, practical fashion, stepping outside " perfect world " scenarios ? So we van get useful things done, ands not waste time and energy tilting at windmills? .

Which includes stopping Self ID. Or at least, making the process suitably long. A few years AT LEAST.

As a pensioner and (I hope) a feminist I can't say I feel offended by the word. However I do draw the line at OAP.

I thought a pension was something you worked hard for all your working life - badge of honour.

Nope, not in the least intended as an insult - common parlance for elderly person, someone I wouldn't even consider mistreating, because of basic decency, and therefore I wouldn't expect plaudits for treating them well.

Has something occurred in the language which now means the word pensioner is offensive? I was totally unaware of that.

... and yes, I know it's not called that officially. But I hadn't realised it was an insult?

I'd rather be pushed than have a radical feminist calling me after a fucking benefit.

A pensioner is someone who receives the old age pension. Indicating an age.

There's a certain GP...

Good point. I'll start a thread so we can keep them all in one place

"I've never pushed a pensioner out of the way in a bus queue. No one's ever given me flowers for not doing it."
FloralBunting
I'd rather be pushed than have a radical feminist calling me after a fucking benefit.

Thank you Hamster00.

Both for answering the question, and respecting women's consent.

Let's add it to the list of investigations to keep an eye on.

NUS investigation of JB
Green Party investigation of AC
Reading Uni investigation of harassment of Rosa

Are there any more I'm forgetting?

There's a certain GP...

Datun - My question to all the transsexuals on this thread is do you use any women's spaces, at all?

No - not one (and that includes loos)

Whether or not the TG vs TS debate is faux or not, it clearly wasn't the purpose of the letter, or anything to do with condemning rhetorical and actual violence and intimidation of women.

Lang and Miranda are entirely right. I'm sure a specific thread to encourage Transsexuals to stand with women would be a good place to do lots of flower emojis and affirmation if that's anyone's bag, but does it have to happen on every single thread where transsexuals acknowledge that violence and intimidation should always be condemned? That's just basic decency, isn't it? I've never pushed a pensioner out of the way in a bus queue. No one's ever given me flowers for not doing it.

Nevertheless, and curiously enough, very little of this thread is about TRA behaviour towards women - purportedly the point of this letter

But there are loads of threads on here about TRA behaviour to women! And interesting (and infuriating) though that subject is, I don't think all the women who've posted on this thread should be disparaged for taking an interest in what transexual voices - male or female - have to say.

And clearly quite a few of us are interested. I don't think the encouragement and questions posted by quite a number of women here - at least a dozen - are just down to "female socialisation" - frankly that's a bit insulting to women who probably have a number of motivations for their interest, including purely intellectual curiosity.

Unless you're a separatist, "centring women" inevitably is going to involve some discussion around the interaction of male people's thinking and behaviour with women's issues. And arguably, an insight into the motivations and thinking of trans people could also be useful to campaigns to preserve women's spaces.

Im not aware of anything since the University made their statement

Let's add it to the list of investigations to keep an eye on.

NUS investigation of JB
Green Party investigation of AC
Reading Uni investigation of harassment of Rosa

Are there any more I'm forgetting?

If your response is to tone police pointing out the dynamic for not being soothing enough to males, I'm afraid I don't think you do get it.

I don't recall saying anything about soothing males, or "tone police" as you call it?
I did stop and reflect as you suggested up thread.
I read the links.
But if you want to flame me. Fill your boots.
A bit sad, as we don't know each other at all, and you have made an assumption, but I'll live.

On the subject of Rosa, does anyone know if any action will be taken re death threats and intimidation?

Im not aware of anything since the University made their statement.

Prof Freedman, said at that point she would not be commenting further (as appropriate for circumstances)

Worth noting the escalation of harrassment towards David Linehan since the interview & which media sources are involved.

Very interesting thread. It's completely different from talking to transactivists.

Much easier.

My question to all the transsexuals on this thread is do you use any women's spaces, at all?

Miranda,

Why is TS v TG a faux debate ?

For me this is very much a debate and a massive issue in todays society that we need to clearly identify how we define TS and TG.

Personally, I would not have gone into "you are not the boss of me" mode confused ( versus accusations of "male hostility")

Ok, I understand what is being said now. I get it.

If your response is to tone police pointing out the dynamic for not being soothing enough to males, I'm afraid I don't think you do get it.

The letter is about women. The thread is not

It's an object lesson in why women (as a class) need our own space. Our socialisation simply prevents us from centring our own perspectives and feelings in any other circumstances.