Letter in the Times - Plea To The Trans Lobby from group of transsexuals

, it really isn't for you to tell women what they should do and within what limits.

Nothing I say is ever going to be right. The assumption always seems to default to my speaking from male privilege or my motivation is to tread on womens rights. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I have personally not done anything to anyone here the issue is what I appear to represent. I am not a TRA. I am against self id, demedicalisation, promotion of TG agenda to children, I don't believe TWAW, I dont believe it's possible to change sex.

It is of course your right to refuse to accept me as a transgender person but I fail to see the alternative has to be that I must therefore be recognised as male.

The whole reason we're in this mess in the first place is because we have complied with exhortations to 'be kind'. It's spelled out in the Goodwin ruling:

... the Court considers that society may reasonably be expected to tolerate a certain inconvenience to enable individuals to live in dignity and worth in accordance with the sexual identity chosen by them at great personal cost.

See also one of the few mentions of how vulnerable female prisoners might be affected by the transfer of a male transsexual (prior to both genital surgery and GRC but with diagnosed gender dysphoria) into the female estate.

This set the precedent for the state being required to house some males in the female estate, regardless of them having convictions for sexual assault and violent crimes.

Successful appeal which overturned the Home Office's previous refusal. (2009)

No apparent dicussion or assessment of impact on female prisoners except the following evidence from an expert in gender dysphoria, Dr James Barrett of the Gender Identity Clinic, Charing Cross Hospital, who had also known the Claimant for many years, explained why living in role in female accommodation was required:

"it will become clear that she is so widely accepted as female in that unit that location in the main prison will follow. I think that such acceptance will pretty generally apply in the main prison, also, although there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world."

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/2220.html

If your best response to women's justifiable concern at the erosion of our language, boundaries, spaces and services is 'be kind' then you are adding insult to injury.

Transexualism up until 1983 was a medical condition. In the 90s it was replaced with Gender Identity Disorder and then in 2013 became Gender Dysphoria. Putting the modern ideology aside and the manipulation and political agendas going on GD diagnosed correctly is a severely debilitating condition that massively impacts someones life. Actual incidence of transsexualism is rare ... you only have to consider the fact that 4900 people in total have attained GRC.

See previous suggestion that you follow up who the key people were and are who have lobbied for legislation, policies and definitions.
Stephen Whittle is a good place to start (a transsexual)

By all means say no to TG, argue against TS too but please never trivialise what genuine GD sufferers experience.

See previous comment by LangCleg, it really isn't for you to tell women what they should do and within what limits.
(its not very civil)

Kay, you read it as trivialising. I make no apologies for my opinion.

I think its fine for one TS to say that another doesnt speak totally for them

That isn't all that Kay said though, was it?

The words be kind does tend to rile feminists now though so should be avoided!

The whole reason we're in this mess in the first place is because we have complied with exhortations to 'be kind'. It's spelled out in the Goodwin ruling:

... the Court considers that society may reasonably be expected to tolerate a certain inconvenience to enable individuals to live in dignity and worth in accordance with the sexual identity chosen by them at great personal cost.

(for 'society' read 'women' - this has never impacted much on men).

self-identified transsexuals

Surely the definition of transsexual requires at a minimum medical diagnosis if not medical transition.

I don't see how you could have a self id transsexual.

*Transsexuals- men whose gender dysphoria is deemed severe enough to be classed as a medical condition.
Transgender- any other man who fancies being a woman whenever he wants. *

Transexualism up until 1983 was a medical condition. In the 90s it was replaced with Gender Identity Disorder and then in 2013 became Gender Dysphoria. Putting the modern ideology aside and the manipulation and political agendas going on GD diagnosed correctly is a severely debilitating condition that massively impacts someones life. Actual incidence of transsexualism is rare ... you only have to consider the fact that 4900 people in total have attained GRC.

By all means say no to TG, argue against TS too but please never trivialise what genuine GD sufferers experience.

there are TS people... who are completely against the modern transgender movement

There also are TS people who are pushing the current trans agenda.

In this thread, we have see from self-identified transsexuals:

• derail from the original topic which was violence against women carried out in the name of transgender activism, the entire point of the letter;
• defiant statements from a biological male affirming that male’s belief in having a right to share women’s spaces; and
• women in the thread being told what to do.

What it really comes down to is this: if you’re going to claim to be different to TRAs, then you actually have to be different to TRAs.

In the meantime, I shall hope the letter achieved some good in highlighting the original problem and I hope that an appetite to challenge violence against women may be found within today’s transgender activism.

I think what we see here is how difficult the situation really is. One part of me is pragmatic that TS are in womens spaces and have been for many years. Part of me does not like it at all. And I am especially upset with regard to the TRAs and the effects on younger women.

I think its fine for one TS to say that another doesnt speak totally for them . Why would it not be? Everyone is different.

I dont find TS dominant on the Feminism boards. There are very few. Im glad they can contribute. And I found it helpful to hear their views here. The words be kind does tend to rile feminists now though so should be avoided! :)

I see Kay's vile comment about Miranda has been deleted. I kept a record of it, so please, Kay, don't pretend it wasn't what it was.

The victims of theft? Rotfl
Transsexuals- men whose gender dysphoria is deemed severe enough to be classed as a medical condition.
Transgender- any other man who fancies being a woman whenever he wants.
Both types take issue with women asserting their boundaries, both remain biologically male. A GRC does not magically switch XY to XX.
The only theft is of the word woman.

Go and tell PFC. Go and tell GIRES. None of this is our fault, we didn't ask for any of it. We were never consulted.

Do you know what an imperative is? Did I order you to do anything there? Or did I - shock, horror - assert my right to say what I want? But you know - do feel absolutely free to keep digging.

So TS people get attacked

The only Transsexual who was attacked was miranda yardley who isn't on the thread. The attack was challenged by a number of people.

Posters are disagreed with because of specific things they say in their posts.

Not because they are made by people who describe themselves as transsexuals.

Please don't suggest transphobia.

So TS people get attacked and I'm not allowed to make a single statement because its apparently a red flag for being an imperative.

So what's "We can do whatever we like, love." ?

Whatever you choose to think I'm not the enemy, Shock horror but there are TS people medical diagnosed who transitioned as last resort who are completely against the modern transgender movement. Some of us just want a quiet life.

you cannot attribute this to transsexuals

We can do whatever we like, love. And we can evidence it too - as you'd know if you'd read the thread. Transsexual activists were front and centre in genderist policy creation and you've been provided with a far from exhaustive list.

And, by the way, not a great idea to use the imperative as a male person on a feminist board. It's a ruddy great red flag, along with all the others on display on this thread.

Those things you speak of that 'have been in place for many years', that you regard as 'privileges'? Those were our spaces that we fought for, not as a privilege but as something that permitted us to participate in public life (as if we were actual human beings), or to escape or heal from male violence

Just 100 years ago this week that some women (adult human females) were able to vote.

You cannot blame the victim of theft.

Wow.

Those things you speak of that 'have been in place for many years', that you regard as 'privileges'? Those were our spaces that we fought for, not as a privilege but as something that permitted us to participate in public life (as if we were actual human beings), or to escape or heal from male violence.

You certainly cannot blame us for being pissed off at the theft of them. We were never asked.

The transgender ideology came out of a group who appropriated transsexual rights that were never intended for them. Simply they liked what they represented and they took them. If anyone is to blame it's the government.

Some research may prove useful.
There are many women who have done the work on the site.

Have a look at threads re Press for Change, Yogakarta principles, hansard GRA, transgender enquiry.

Governments were lobbied.
See who was involved with the lobbying and take it up with them.

With respect, energies may be better spent challenging this elsewhere.

Yes. Take it up with PFC, with Stephen Whittle and Christine Burns who have been working to make yours an 'inclusive' movement since the mid 90's (even inclusive of cross dressers). Unless I missed it they haven't yet issued a similar condemnation of TRA violence, have they?

The current 'transgender' thing grew from the 'transsexual' thing.

With respect I strongly disagree.

Transsexuals are a medicalised group in a minority who were given the GRA.

The transgender ideology came out of a group who appropriated transsexual rights that were never intended for them. Simply they liked what they represented and they took them. If anyone is to blame it's the government.

You cannot blame the victim of theft.